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Trophies and Winning Mentality

Introduction

Hello, everyone. We've talked endlessly about Man United's various players and how good they really are, but something which I've seen crop up on occasion is the idea of the 'winning mentality'. In other words, it's this idea that part of the reason that this club is struggling on the pitch at the moment is attributable to the fact that most of our players have little to no experience winning trophies and so lack the required drive, desire or experience to succeed in the same way that the likes of Liverpool and Man City have.
How do we measure 'winning mentality', though? I don't think it can truly be measured objectively, but medals and trophy cabinets might give us some indication. Thus, I'll be going through every player currently at the club (with a minimum cut-off of fifty career senior appearances) and looking at all the senior trophies they've won to see how true it is that our current problems stem partially from a lack of experience at winning things.

David de Gea

De Gea was bought from Atlético Madrid by Sir Alex on the 29th of June 2011 for £18.9 million (which was a British record for a goalkeeper at the time) and it's fair to say that he's been among our best players in recent years. You may already know that he's one of the very few players left at the club who has won a Premier League title, but what else has he won?
Not many people talk about this, but DDG had actually won stuff with Atlético prior to joining United, namely the Europa League and the UEFA Super Cup. Not the most impressive haul, but part of Fergie's magic was instilling a winning mentality into players who otherwise might not have possessed the same mental fortitude.
At United, De Gea was of course part of Ferguson's last title-winning squad. In addition, he has won an FA Cup under van Gaal, a League Cup under Mourinho, three Community Shields (one under Ferguson, one under Moyes and one under Mourinho) and he even got a winners' medal when Mourinho won the Europa League (I checked and he did actually play a few fixtures). All-in-all, not a bad trophy haul, but considering that he was the best goalkeeper in the world at one point, he'll be disappointed to have won just one league title and no Champions Leagues in his senior career. His lack of silverware with Spain will also be an issue for him.

Dean Henderson

Hendo came from the youth ranks but didn't sign a senior contract until August 2015. He has since gone on loan to Stockport County, Grimsby Town, Shrewsbury Town and Sheffield United. In that time, he hasn't won a single senior trophy; the closest he came was making the EFL Trophy final with Shrewsbury and coming second in the Championship with Sheffield United. He's no doubt a solid keeper, but if we're to return to the glory days, Ole (or whoever a future manager might be) is going to need to drill him to win titles.

Sergio Romero

The Argentinian international was signed on a free transfer (his most recent club being Sampdoria) by Louis van Gaal on the 27th of July 2015. Prior to joining United, he had already won the Eredivisie and the Johan Cruyff Shield (which is basically the Dutch Super Cup) with AZ Alkmaar, so he had experience winning league titles. He had also recently featured in the World Cup Final for Argentina, but failed to win.
Since joining United, he has won the FA Cup, the League Cup, the Community Shield and, most notably, the Europa League. He has failed to win anything with Argentina despite reaching two Copa América finals. Considering he's essentially a backup, his trophy cabinet isn't too shabby. Plus, he absolutely earned that Europa League title under José considering he played both in the semi-final and the final (take notes, Ole).

Lee Grant

Manchester United's GOAT goalkeeper has had quite the career. Signed from Stoke City on the 3rd of July 2018 for a reported fee of £1.5 million, it's fair to say that he's a bit of a veteran, having made his senior debut all the way back in 2002. In that time, he has won absolutely nothing. I mean, I guess there's no obligation for the third-choice goalie to have won anything, but still, it's a little odd.

Joel Pereira

A youth player, Joel Pereira has spent most of his time on loan. He has yet to win anything.

Victor Lindelof

Lindelof was signed from Benfica by Mourinho in June 2017 for a fee of €35 million, and his list of honours is bigger than you might expect (granted, not quite playing at the same level). His first trophy was the Swedish Division 1 title with Vasteras SK, before winning three Primeira Liga titles, two Taca de Portugal titles, one Taca de Liga and one Supertaca Candido de Oliveira with Benfica. In other words, prior to joining United, he had won four league titles, two cups, a league cup and a super cup. He has yet to win anything with Sweden, however, or with Manchester United for that matter.

Eric Bailly

Bailly was the first player to be signed by Mourinho on the 8th of June 2016 for £30 million; he had previously been at Villareal. Bailly is a rather unusual case in that he hadn't won any domestic trophies prior to joining United but he's also the first person on this list to have won international silverware, more specifically the 2015 Africa Cup of Nations with Cote d'Ivoire. At United, he has won the Community Shield, the League Cup and the Europa League, all under José Mourinho.

Phil Jones

Now we come to none other than Jonesta himself. When he was first signed by Fergie from Blackburn Rovers on the 13th of June 2011 for £16.5 million, he was genuinely seen as one of the hottest young talents at the time despite not having won anything. It's a shame that hasn't really lived up to his potential, but right now, we're focussed only on trophies, and I have to say that he hasn't done too badly for himself on that front.
He's one of the few players at this club who has won the Premier League, more specifically Ferguson's last title (which is still one more than Steven Gerrard). He has also won the Community Shield under both Ferguson and Moyes (not under Mourinho, however), the FA Cup under van Gaal and the Europa League under Mourinho. At international level, he of course hasn't won anything with England.

Harry Maguire

Maguire was infamously signed for £80 million (a world record fee for a defender) from Leicester City on the 5th of August 2019. The only silverware he's ever won, though, is a Championship play-off trophy with Hull City, which is somehow still more than some of our other players. Of course, he's also reached two semi-finals with England (the World Cup and the Nations League) but he's yet to bring football home. With his record in mind, it's easy to see why some fans are sceptical of Slabhead's captaincy.

Marcos Rojo

Like Cristiano, Rojo came from Sporting, having been signed for £16 million by Louis van Gaal on the 19th of August 2014. He has been much-maligned by United fans for a while now (I bet most of you forgot he was still at the club), but his trophy cabinet, compared to most of our players, is actually relatively impressive.
While at Estudiantes de La Plata (which is not one of the Argentinian 'Big Two' of River Plate and Boca Juniors), Rojo won the 2010 Apertura (which I think counts as a league title?) and the 2009 Copa Libertadores. That makes him the first player on this list to have won a continental title. At United, he has won the FA Cup, the League Cup, the Europa League and the Community Shield. I have to say, if the problem is players who lack a winning mentality then I'm not sure Rojo should be the first to go (though he's still deadwood IMO).

Axel Tuanzebe

Somehow, he actually makes the cut-off; I didn't realise how much he's actually played. Another youth player, most of Tuanzebe's appearances have come while on loan to Aston Villa, and he actually won the Championship play-off with them, so he already has a trophy in his cabinet. He also supposedly has a Europa League to his name, but I'm not sure how considering he hadn't made his debut yet, so I'll be cautious and exclude it.

Luke Shaw

Louis van Gaal signed Luke Shaw from Southampton on the 27th of June 2014 for a reported fee of £30 million (making him the most expensive teenager in world football at the time). What had he won at that point? Nothing. Still, he was considered a generational talent and he has since won a couple of stuff at Manchester United: the Community Shield and the Europa League, both under José. Yeah, his trophy cabinet is pretty barebones.
Interestingly enough, Chelsea were in for him at the same time United were, but backed out due to his wage demands. Perhaps Shaw would have won more trophies had he gone to Chelsea instead? More interesting is that José Mourinho was Chelsea manager at the time, so it's quite ironic that after refusing to sign Shaw, he'd end up managing him anyway.

Timothy Fosu-Mensah

I'm not sure what position TFM plays, but fullback seems most appropriate. Anyway, he came through our academy and didn't win anything on his various loan deals. However, he has won both the FA Cup and the Europa League at United, like most of our players, it seems.

Alex Telles

Signed from Porto for £15 million in this transfer window, I'm happy to say that he's actually won a lot of stuff in various leagues, which is hopefully a good sign.
Firstly, he has won the Copa FGF (a regional Brazilian cup competition) twice with Juventude. Secondly, he has won a league title with Galatasaray, as well as two Turkish Cups and a Turkish Super Cup. Finally, he has won two Primeira Liga titles, a Taca de Portugal and a Supertaca Candido de Oliveira with Porto. He has won trophies at every club which he's spent more than a season with, so hopefully, he'll help United to our first piece of silverware since the Europa League under José.

Aaron Wan-Bissaka

Signed from Crystal Palace for £50 million on the 29th of June 2019, he hasn't got the greatest pedigree, winning nothing. How much he's expected to win at the age of 22, I don't know, but certainly, there's still plenty of time. What's needed is for someone to instil that winning mentality into him like Sir Alex would have done with his young signings.

Diogo Dalot

Dalot was supposedly considered a huge talent before signing for us, but really, it seems to me as if he should be a winger rather than a fullback. Anyway, we signed him from Porto on the 6th of June 2018 for £19 million, but went out on loan this transfer window to A.C. Milan. Believe it or not, he's actually got a trophy to his name, and it's not some minor super cup either; he's actually won the Primeira Liga with Porto. Dude has won more trophies than Aaron Wan-Bissaka.

Paul Pogba

Depending on who you ask, Pogba is a fantastic midfielder who is United's best player, a talented midfielder who has been too inconsistent or a waste of money who has cared only for himself (in José Mourinho's words, a 'virus'). This isn't too surprising considering we signed him for £89 million from Juventus on the 8th of August 2016, which was a world record for any player at the time; of course expectations were going to be high.
At Juventus, Pogba was a trophy-winning machine, having to his name four Serie A titles, two Coppa Italia titles and two Supercoppa Italiana titles. The lack of European success was his only weak spot in that regard. Since joining United, however, he's been restricted to a League Cup and a Europa League, which must feel like quite the stepdown (at least he's got a European trophy now, though probably not the one he wanted).
That's only counting club trophies, of course. His greatest achievement by far has to be his 2018 World Cup win for France; it's not as if he was a passenger either, being praised during the tournament for boosting France's midfield significantly. This, to me, shows that he can absolutely be motivated to win titles, but it doesn't seem to happening for him at United for whatever reason.

Juan Mata

The only David Moyes signing still at the club, Mata was signed from Chelsea in January 2014 for £37 million, which was a club record at the time. He had an illustrious career prior to joining United, and looking at his trophy cabinet, one could argue that he has effectively wasted his prime years at this club.
Even prior to joining Chelsea, he had won a Copa del Rey with Valencia and the 2010 World Cup with Spain. He then proceeded to win a Champions League, a Europa League and an FA Cup with Chelsea (as well as reaching the final of the FIFA Club World Cup), in addition to winning the 2012 European Championship with Spain. When United signed him at the age of 25, he had already won pretty much every major trophy barring a top-flight title and he hadn't even hit his prime, so the signing must have felt like an absolute steal.
Unfortunately, this is where Mata's success began to fade. At Manchester United, he has won a Europa League, an FA Cup, a League Cup and a Community Shield, but still no league title. At the age of 32, it seems unlikely that he'll win any more major trophies, which is a shame for a player who won so much at a tender age.

Jesse Lingard

Although he made several appearances as an unused sub under Fergie, Lingard didn't make his competitive debut for the club until the 2014-15 season under van Gaal (who loved to use youth players). How much has won, then? Not more than most other players, it should be said. None of his loan spells garnered him any trophies, but he has won the Europa League, the FA Cup, the League Cup and the Community Shield for Man United.

Fred

When United signed the Brazilian midfielder for £47 million from Shakhtar Donetsk on the 5th of June 2018, there were no doubt a few eyebrows raised. However, he has actually won a boatload of trophies at club level despite his lack of international success.
While at Internacional, Fred won the Campeonato Gaúcho (the top division of the Rio Grande do Sul regional leagues) twice and then proceeded to win three Ukrainian Premier League titles, three Ukrainian Cups and four Ukrainian Super Cups at Shakhtar Donetsk. That's actually not a bad trophy haul at all.

Bruno Fernandes

Ah, the Portuguese Magnifico himself; when United fans talk about the 'winning mentality', Bruno is often the first player that is pointed to as an example of a player who possesses this mentality. The question is, though, has Bruno actually won anything?
As a matter of fact, he has, but no league titles, unfortunately. While at Sporting, he has won a Taca de Portugal and two Taca da Liga titles, so a cup and two league cups. His most prestigious trophy is arguably the 2018-19 Nations League with Portugal, though time will tell if the Nations League successfully establishes itself as a premier competition. That being said, based solely on his trophy haul, there is little to suggest that Bruno has what it takes to win a league title (of course, anyone can see from his performances and demeanour on the pitch that he hates losing).

Nemanja Matic

The best Nemanja since Vidic, Matic has won a lot of trophies over his career. When he was first signed from Chelsea by Man United on the 31st of July 2017 for £40 million, he had already won the incredibly prestigious Slovak Cup with Kosice, before winning two Premier League titles, an FA Cup and a League Cup during his two stints at Chelsea as well as a Primeira Liga and a Taca de Liga with Benfica. At United, he has won...nothing. In fact, if you discount his season-long loan at Vitesse, this is so far the only club in which Matic hasn't won anything.

Donny van de Beek

For Ajax, DvdB won an Eredivisie title, a Dutch Cup and a Johan Cruyff Shield. He also reached a Nations League final with the Netherlands. Time will tell if he can add to his trophy cabinet at Manchester United.

Scott McTominay

McSauce came through the youth ranks, made his debut at the end of the 2016-17 season and has yet to win anything.

Andreas Pereira

Pereira made his senior debut in the 2015-16 season before being loaned to Granada, Valencia and now Lazio. He has yet to win anything at senior level.

Edinson Cavani

The signing of Cavani has divided opinion. Some feel that he'll be the next Bastian Schweinsteiger or Radamel Falcao, while others feel that he could be the next Zlatan Ibrahimovic. However, one thing that can't be denied is his massive trophy cabinet; whether a player who has achieved as much as he has is precisely what United needs is another matter.
The Uruguayan started his career by winning the Primera División with his boyhood club Danubio before winning a Coppa Italia with Napoli. However, it was at PSG where he really shone, winning six Ligue 1 titles, the Coupe de France four times, the Coupe de la Ligue five times and the Trophée des Champions four times. Yes, it's PSG and yes, he hasn't won any continental competitions, but he's still a proven winner. Add in the 2011 Copa América (which he won with Uruguay) and I don't think Man United have a more decorated player in their squad at the moment. The real question is whether Cavani is past it or whether he still possesses the class that he had in his prime.

Anthony Martial

On the 1st of September 2015, Manchester United famously threw £50 million down the drain to sign a 19-year-old Anthony Martial (who came from France) from AS Monaco. The English press declared that he had no chance; he went on to score 71 goals in 225 competitive games for United.
It should be said that Martial hadn't won anything when we signed him, but considering his age, that's forgivable. He has since won the FA Cup, the League Cup, the Community Shield and the Europa League, but still no Ballon d'Or. As for the French national team, Martial came close to winning Euro 2016 but he (and France) fell at the final hurdle, while he wasn't included in the squad for the 2018 World Cup.

Dr. Marcus Rashford MBE

The future Prime Minister and part-time Manchester United forward came through the academy ranks before making his debut under Louis van Gaal following an injury to Martial. Rashford during his time at Man United has won an FA Cup, a League Cup, a Community Shield, a Europa League, a Member of the Order of the British Empire and an honorary doctorate from the University of Manchester.

Mason Greenwood

The best finisher at the club since Robin van Persie, Greenwood also came through the academy ranks. Given his young age and lack of experience, he of course hasn't won anything yet.

Daniel James

The Welsh winger was Ole Gunnar Solskjaer's first signing as manager, being bought from Swansea City on the 6th of June 2019 for £15 million. Given his previous club (Swansea) and his national team (Wales), it's no surprise that he's yet to win anything.

Odion Ighalo

Unlike the rest of the players here, Ighalo was loaned to us in January 2020 from Shanghai Greenland Shenhua. He may won just the one trophy, but when that trophy is none other than the coveted Chinese FA Cup, you can already tell that he's a natural born winner (Chinese FA Cup-winning centre-forward, you'll never sing that!). He also came second place in the Championship with Watford, but second place is first place for losers, so that doesn't really matter.

Jadon Sancho

Bought on deadline day for £120 million, Sancho has won the DFL-Supercup with Borussia Dortmund.
...screw Ed Woodward. At least we have Facundo Pellistri, eh?

Conclusion

This whole thing is turning into a bit of a mess, so let's standardise it with some numerical values. Note that these are just arbitrary numbers that I've assigned for comparison purposes, so don't take them as gospel.

World Cup, confederation cup (e.g. Euros), Champions League, Copa Libertadores = 20 points
Top-flight title in 'Big Five' leagues = 16 points
Europa League, national cup competition in 'Big Five' leagues = 10 points
UEFA Nations League = 6 points
Other top-flight title = 5 points
Other national cup competition = 3 points
Other cup (e.g. league cups, super cups) = 1 point

With this system, here are all the current Man United players (min. 50 senior appearances) ranked by trophy haul.

Cavani: 180
Pogba: 117
Mata: 112
Matic: 52
De Gea: 51
Rojo: 47
Jones: 38
Fred: 33
Bailly: 32
Lindelof: 28
Romero: 28
Telles: 27
Lingard: 22
Martial: 22
Rashford: 22
Fosu-Mensah: 20
Fernandes: 11
Shaw: 11
Van de Beek: 9
Dalot: 5
Ighalo: 3
Maguire: 1
Tuanzebe: 1
Grant: 0
Greenwood: 0
Henderson: 0
James: 0
McTominay: 0
Pereira (both of them): 0
Wan-Bissaka: 0

Obviously, trophies aren't everything (I am not seriously suggesting that Phil Jones has a stronger mentality than Bruno Fernandes) but this might be interesting. For reference, here's the list for all of Man United's players who played in at least five league games in the 2012-13 season (our last league title) up to and including the beginning of that season (so trophies won after the start of the 2012-13 season, including the league title, aren't counted).

Ryan Giggs: 291\*
Paul Scholes: 244*
Rio Ferdinand: 113*+
Anderson: 111*
Nemanja Vidic: 108*
Michael Carrick: 98*+
Patrice Evra: 97*
Wayne Rooney: 95*
Nani: 83*
Shinji Kagawa: 62
Jonny Evans: 44*^
Chicharito: 42
Rafael: 41*
Antonio Valencia: 23
Robin van Persie: 21
Chris Smalling: 18
David de Gea: 12
Danny Welbeck: 9*
Anders Lindegaard: 4
Tom Cleverley: 2
Ashley Young: 2
Phil Jones: 1

*Player won the Club World Cup, which I've assigned 6 points
+Player won the Intertoto Cup, which I've assigned 3 points
^Player won the second division of a 'Big Five' league, which I've assigned 3 points

OK, firstly, jeez, calm down, Giggsy. Secondly, LOL at Anderson being ahead of Vidic, Carrick, Ferdinand, Evra and Rooney. Thirdly, that 2012-13 squad contained 10 players who had a score greater than 52 at the time (and of course, several of them saw a jump after the title win). The current squad has 3. Obviously, it's much easier when you've been winning titles left, right and centre for the past twenty years, but make no mistake: Fergie drilled his teams to win at all costs.
submitted by MightySilverWolf to reddevils [link] [comments]

[Table] IAmA German Soldier in the Air Force. AMA

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Date: 2012-09-06
Link to submission (Has self-text)
Link to my post
Questions Answers
Is there a negative attitude amongst the air force/army/navy towards America and the other nations that defeat Germany in the world wars? No, we don't have a negative attitude towards them. Of course Germany was defeated, but the important thing is that the Nazi Regime was overthrown. That is rather something to be thankful for, the German people suffered a lot under that Regime. We only hate the French. No, just kidding, of course we don't. :)
How different is the German Air Force from the U.S. Air Force? Pretty different. Mind, I'm not an expert in the USAF, but the GAF is considerably smaller. We don't have as many different types of aircraft, and we don't have any carrier-based fighter jets (although I think this would be part of the US Navy, right? Ugh I'm guessing I'm stepping on some toes already!) Our two main aircraft are the Panavia Tornado, which is a swept-wing bomber kind of like the US's F-111, and the Eurofighter, which is a fast interceptor. Other than that, we have a couple of Phantom-IIs left, but they are currently being replaced by Eurofighters as they are getting really outdated (although I personally have a soft spot for them). We have a lot of Transalls, our carrier plane, and a handful of helicopters. But most of the military's helicopters are part of the Army ("Heer"), not the Air Force ("Luftwaffe").
I'm in Germany soon, you up for a beer? Haha sure ;) where are you gonna be at? I know, Germany is tiny compared to the States, but it's still a 10hr drive from north to south. :)
Well, visiting a mate in Ulm, but will be in Europe for 4 months. Where are you? No States here mate, Australia. No where is far from anywhere... Oh sorry! Australia it is, mate :) I'm in the deep south, write me a inbox message about details.
I'm an American (permanently) in Köln, and if you're ever up here I'll buy you a beer, man. Thanks for the AMA! Thank you :D I might be there next spring, I'll drop you a line!
Not a question specific to the air force, but concerning the Bundeswehr: What do you think about the suspension of the general conscription? Are you pro or contra the conscription? Do you learn something useful there even if you don't plan to join the army for a living? Oh, that's a tough question. On the one side, I think is wasn't to bad that young men were to serve in the military for nine months. Most of them came directly from their families, so they learned how to stand on their own legs for the first time in their lives. Boys got in, young responsible men came back. Also, during those nine monts, most guys made up their mind as what to do with their lifes, e.g. what to study, instead of being really indecisive as what to do right after high school. So with that in mind, I think it was a useful establishment. On the other hand, not all guys were conscripted, only like one out of three. That is just due to the fact that the military just needs so and so many soldiers. So it was just unfair and unjust, some got "pulled", others didn't have to put up with it. If you didn't want to serve "with a weapon", you could always do social services instead, like working in a hospital or at a kindergarden or senior's residence as well for nine months. You got the same money and didn't get any less benefits or disadvantages because of it later in society. So that was a good thing.
What is the best thing in the GAF? What is the worst? I think the best thing about the GAF is the pretty relaxed relationship among the ranks. When people work together as a team, it's not unusual for a low rank (like a PFC) to adress Officers in a casual way. That's different with the Army. The worst thing is probably being possibly separated from your family for quite some time, or being moved to another base where your family isn't as close as before.
Is this what you always wanted to do? No, I had other job options as well. I would lie if I'd say, this is what I always wanted to do since I was little.
What made you decide on this, from what I gather it is no longer compulsory service there? You're right, it's no longer a compulsory service here. I decided on being a soldier, because I wanted to make a difference, as cheesy as that might sound. I strongly believe in the concept of a democracy and also think capitalism is a vital part of a civilized society, and I think the richer industrial states owe it to poorer countries with suppressing regimes that they get a fair share of the cake, too. It's hard to express my feelings in English, though, I hope you know what I mean. I'm not saying we should force democracy upon everyone regardless of culture, but I think we should intervene somewhere if there are massive violations of human rights going on.
Is there a sexy uniform? Yes, we have sexy uniforms. ;) We have the green-patched camouflage "work" uniform and a dark blue gala uniform.
Are there still regional stereotypes in germany? What do you mean by regional stereotypes? Like, the Bavarians with Lederhosen and such? Yes, we still have that. I guess it's the same with Texans and New England people, there ought to be regional differences just because of the distance between them and the regional historical context.
That uniform description was just cruel teasing though. Thank you for your compliment. And about that uniform, anyone in a uniform looks kinda sexy, methinks. There's definitely something about nurses, policemen, firefighters, and soldiers, just because of the uniform. Or stewardesses, for that matter.
Given the historical laws in Germany pertaining to the darker past, what gets said about the Luftwaffe? It was a seemingly impenetrable force which runs the risk of having its achievements marginalized by politics. Personally, I have the feeling that the Luftwaffe of WWII is kind of the only part of that former military (Wehrmacht) that still arouses a little (!) pride in today's Germans. Not because of the gruesome things it certainly did, but rather because the German aircraft back then were a gem in engineering. The Fw-190 or the Bf-109 are still beautiful to look at, just like the Mustang P-51D or the Spitfire. There is still a little bit of adventurous glory in the thought of being a dog-fight pilot in WWII, but I guess that's the same in other nations. I might get bashed for that, but an aircraft is rather elegant in comparison to a tank or a battleship, that might be why.
How good is the food in the german air force? Depends on where you are. But I have yet to encounter really bad food. I like it, they usually have a great variety of things to pick from, and huge ass salad buffets which I like a lot.
I don't really like 'ass salads' Ahaha. Made me crack up^
Do German chow halls/dining facilities/whatever serve alot of sausage? (Interpret that as you wish). Haha. no.
Is it fun to work for the Luftwaffe? I tought about to try to get an helicopter pilot for the Luftwaffe after school, do you know if its hard to get one? And do i get the pilot license there for free? Grüße aus München :) I like it a lot, but that's just me. If you think about being a helicopter pilot, you need almost perfect eyesight and lot of physical and psychological fitness. A lot of people apply for that, so make sure you are well prepared when you enter the test program. If you pass all the tests and get the job, you get your pilot license for free, yes. But I'm not sure if you can convert the military license to a civil license after your service any more, they talked about changing some things. I know it's a problem with the jet pilots, but obviously not with the transport pilots. You might wanna ask google on that. Good luck with your application! Grüße zurück!
Ok thanks, then its nothing for me :( i got glasses. Eine letzte Frage: Kannst du mir sagen wo du arbeitest? Denn ich lebe nicht direkt in München, sondern im Umkreis und direkt über uns fliegen immer die Tornados. Wenn nicht ist auch nicht schlimm ;) I'll just translate that to English for anyone else to read: One last question, can you tell me where you work? I don't live right in Munich, but close to it, and there are many Tornados flying right above us. If you can't tell me, I don't mind :) - - - I'd rather not tell you where I work, but if you're around Munich, those Tornados probably come from Erding. They don't have their own Fliegerstaffel, but they do some major overhaul on them.
What is the general attitude of the German public towards the Air Force? The general attitude towards the Military is usually indifferent. I get a lot of surprised looks when somebody asks me what I do for a living, and I tell them I'm a soldier. That's because we have a really really small military, not even 280.000 soldiers as opposed to a population of 82 million. It's a really rare job, so to say. I don't get any hate (usually, but there are exceptions), but I also don't get any praise. It's not as a glorified profession as in the USA.
Does the attitude of the general public bother you, or do you prefer it this way? Also, shameless (but relevant) plug for a friend of mine: Have you heard of Warum Soldaten? I think it's a pity that deployed soldiers don't get any attention. I went to high school in the US, and every couple of months, we would send care packets with toothpaste, magazines, books and stuff like that to deployed soldiers we didn't even know personally. I really liked that gesture. Personally, I don't want to get glorified, but I think the soldiers abroad deserve more attention and respect.
This reminds me of a French solider writing about being stationed in the US. Link. Mostly because of his passage about those "care packets" you mentioned. Are those things uncommon for you? Yes. Most civilians (including large parts of my family) don't have any idea where German Military is stationed throughout the world, let alone the reasons we are there. Care packages are something completely unheard of.
Do you have ADG's? Airfield Defence Guards, like Australia does? Yes, something along those lines. We call it Object Security, but I figure that's about what it is.
I wonder if the money we put in couldn't be used better. Do we really need an army? They protect us from what, exactly? They do a good job doing whatever they do, though. I know the war in Afghanistan is something civilians have a hard time understanding. To put a really complicated issue in a few words, think of it this way: If someone would have shot Hitler in 1938, a huge war would have been prevented. That is what the NATO is doing in Afghanistan, preventing the Taliban from getting too much power and preventing them from organizing even more than they already do. The Taliban, in that comparison, are much like the Nazi Regime - just like the Nazi Regime was suppressing their own German people, the Taliban are suppressing the Afghan people. There are a lot of Human Rights violations going on, and those people deserve to be protected.
What kind of things would you do to "soup up" an aircraft? They get stronger engines, other air intake programming (for supersonic flight), and other electronic warfare components.
Did you ever regret joining the military? I am 25 and already have a bachelors degree in engineering but cant imagine spending the next 40 to 45 years working 8 to 5 in an office. No, I never regret it. I like it a lot, but I made sure I didn't get an office job in the first place ;) If you already have a bachelors degree in engineering, don't do it. You already lost your benefits by studying outside the military, so you are basically giving them your degree for free while others study within the military and are being paid while doing so. If your degree isn't too bad, you'll get more money in a civil employment. You might think about adding a master, too.
If you already have a bachelors degree in engineering, don't do it. You already lost your benefits by studying outside the military, so you are basically giving them your degree for free while others study within the military and are being paid while doing so. If your degree isn't too bad, you'll get more money in a civil employment. You might think about adding a master, too. I don't get that part. I'm german too and I'll get to Bundeswehr first time in my life in 3 weeks (Stabsoffizier). Got any experience in that? Stabsunteroffizier, maybe? Yes, you can get in with a higher rank, provided you have higher civil education, Once you have Abitur, you can apply for the Officers' career. Then you would usually get to go to an university not even for free, but under full payment. As the above poster already has an engineer's degree, he wouldn't get any further education and start with his job immediately. He would miss out on the financial "bonus" of studying with the military.
I've heard (from an exchange student back in high school) that military service (for 2 years) is compulsory for people coming out of high school or college. Is that true? If so, which is it? Do you have a choice as to which branch (assuming Germany has a separate navy, airforce, and army)? Are there any other options. Also, is it just men or everyone? Yes, we had a compulsory military service, but only for nine months. Back in 1995 (I think) it was fifteen months. The Compulsory Service got suspended this year, so it's entirely voluntarily now. Yes, we do have a separate Navy, Air Force and Army, they are called Marine, Luftwaffe, and Heer (in that order.) And yes, you did get to pick which branch you wanted in, IF they had open positions, so basically not everyone got in where he wanted. It was just compulsory for men, although women can and do apply to the military as well. You also had the choice weather to serve in the military for nine months or do public service, such as in hospitals and kindergartens.
What's your opinion of the war in Afghanistan? I think it's a just cause. I wrote a little about my opinion above in another comment, I thinks it's important for western (rich) alliances such as the NATO and the UN to intervene in countries where human rights are severely being violated on a daily basis.
To follow up, do you think Germany should intervene in similar cases around the world, too - for instance in Syria? Tough question. Yes I think we should intervene, along with any other European nation, seeing that Syria is right in our front yard. But I know for a fact that the tiny German Military is already stretched beyond it's limits with the conflicts in Afghanistan, Kosovo, Somalia and the Mediterrean Sea. Seeing that our government already spend a shitload of money on the financial crisis in Greece and Spain, we cannot enlarge our Military any more to intervene in any more locations then we already are.
Would 99 red ballons show up on your radar? I'm no radar expert, but I hear Eurofighters can pick up things as little as even one green balloon on the radar.
How much do you earn a year (a months salary)? Do you think it's worth the effort you put into it? I don't want to put exact numbers on here, but I earn around 2000 Euros per month. I am content with that, especially because I get free health care on top of that.
Is that tax free / after tax income? That is the amount I get transferred to my bank account each month, with tax income already subtracted from it.
Are you able to provide any proof? I would highly recommend that you have some experience (i.e. SaZ/BS), as a FWDL who just finished AGA or got ATN is most certainly incapable of answering any advanced questions. I might provide proof to the mods, yes, but I haven't quite figured out how to do so, maybe send them a picture of me in uniform. (but that could be anyone, so...?)
MkG, buxe2000. I am an SaZ12. I will try to answer the questions to the best of my knowledge. I might not be able to answer super advanced questions, but I won't make anything up. If I have no clue, I say so. :)
How about Feldanzug Grundform holding a sign reading "Reddit AMA - redtattoo - 06 SEP 12" (for proof) in front of your face (for anonymity)? That is a really good idea. I might just do that.
Woah woah, the Germans didn't start any World War (read on before giving me stick for this) - the Germans at the time started it, so i don't see why any now should feel guilty about it. Plus, it was the Austro-Hungarian Empire that started the First World War, but the German Empire was forced to accept the blame at Versailles. The Germans now are goddamn awesome. I've visited Ulm for several years and loved everything about the place, not least the hugely friendly atmosphere. As for a question; how do you find life in the Bundeswehr? I personally have a plan to join the British Army Intelligence Corps after having left university; different nation and system, I know, but how is armed service for yourself? Thank you for that opinion, I'm glad people have an interest in history! I've talked about live in the Bundeswehr in other comments, please cross-read there to see if your questions have already been answered. If not, feel free to post more specific questions, I'll be happy to answer them!
How old are you now, and how old were you when you joined up? Do you recommend it? Any regrets, or is it everything you wanted in a career? What kind of qualifications do you have? I don't want to put my exact age on here, but let's say I'm around 30ish and joined somewhere in my 20ies. Yes, for those people who have played with the thoughts of being a soldier and are willing to put up with the difficulties that job brings, like being separated from your family a lot, it's a great job. You get to do a lot of sports, the payment isn't bad, and you have a job with a just cause. As to my qualifications, I started in the civil world as a car mechanic, advanced to engine designing and building, joined the Military, and got to attend some classes to catch up on aeroplane technology and engineering.
Are the Tornado maintainers looking forward to transitioning to Typhoon or want to stay on with a "classic"? I've talked with F-15 crews and pilots here in the US and most of them are happy with the F-15 and don't really want to move to F-22, is it like that in the Luftwaffe? Tough question. I really like the Tornado a lot, simply because it's a huge powerful machine, and it's a swept-wing concept which you don't see often nowadays. I'm not sure if I get to transition to the Eurofighter Typhoon, but I guess I should at least try, seeing that the Tornado is being taken out of service in 2024. If I want to stay in the Air Force longer, I'll have to transition as soon as possible. I guess I'll just have to take it as an advantage to learn something new, as the Eurofighter uses a lot of composite materials which I'm not really familiar with yet. Should be interesting!
I have to ask...Have any pilots you know ever had a run in with a UFO? No. Sorry.
Do you know what the Luftwaffe will do when the Tornado needs to be replaced? Will it just use the Eurofighter as a single type? The Eurofighter MR (Multi Role) is supposed to be ready by then. And although I hate to say so, but yes, that's gonna be our only type of aircraft if nothing surprisingly changes.
Auf Deutsch, denn ich habe zu wenige Gelegenheit Deutsch zu benutzen! Was für Arbeitsplan hast du? Hast du viel Freizeit? I'll just answer in English, I hope that's okay for you, so other people can decipher my answer as well. I have as much leisure time as a civil worker, I work every day from 7am to 16pm, friday from 7 to noon. I have the weekends off, except if I'm scheduled for watch, which isn't often.
Ich liebe deutschland ! I lived there for about 8 years before moving to the U.S, great country and some really nice people. Any chance you worked on the Eurofighter if not what do you what have you worked on? And what are some features that stand out in the aircraft compared to others? Any crazy stories you have maybe overheard from talking to pilots or others that stand out to you? Thank you for sharing. I've covered most of your questions in the comments above, please cross-read a little from there if I'm not answering all of your questions entirely. I'm working on the Tornado, but I hope to change to the Eurofighter within the next few years as I think it will be a huge learning experience. The Tornado stands out from the other aircraft as it is one of the very rare swept-wing aircraft today. There are only a few others, and I think it's a fascinating concept. Umm, a crazy story - two of our ex-pilots, back in the day when the Starfighter was still in active service, got suspended from flying and awarded a medal at the same time because they used to under-fly bridges across the autobahn to see who had the bigger balls. Needless to say, that is a horribly dangerous thing to do, hence the suspension from flying for a couple of months, but it's also pretty badass if you ask me. I was told, one of the guys won the bet because he would underfly those bridges on his back.
Before I even read anything that's been posted so far, I'd just like to say that, regardless of your nation's sordid past (and don't we all have those), I don't see how anyone who wasn't involved in the war directly could feel spiteful towards you or your countrymen/women. In fact, I clicked your post because I thought, "Odd. What's this AMA gonna be about?" and figured it'd be purely informational for folks who want to compare military life or something. I suppose I am curious though about how the World Wars have influenced today's military life/training/traditions. Is it mostly not acknowledged, or used as a, uh, learning opportunity, or what? I can't think of any specific instance where it would be one or the other, though I suppose the salient point should be that unchecked aggression will not stand, eh? I'm glad you feel that way. I am actually really surprised no one here has called me Nazi yet, that is really a welcome surprise. Thank you reddit. To answer your question, we use that experience as a learning opportunity, yes. On one hand, it shows how politics can go horribly wrong, and on the other hand, military speaking, we learned a lot of tactical and strategical things to consider from every nation/military involved in WWII. So yes, we do talk about it a lot, and I think that's a really important thing to do to prevent anything like that from ever happening again.
Do you guys really have bronies everywhere? Because I've seen some pics over at /int/ I had to google what a brony is. Sorry, I don't know any bronies in person, but I might be the wrong guy to ask.
Do do we get to see the 'red tattoo"? Maybe :P I actually though of this as kind of proof, but I didn't see how I could prove the GAF thing with it ;)
So... When are you guys gonna start the next world war? As a swede it would be nice to know in advance so we have time to prepare our neutrality. Oh, we'll just wait for the climate change to kick in, as soon as the Gulf Stream is interrupted your country is just gonna freeze in under kilometers of ice. And I'm not even making that up.
What is the biggest secret you learned and must not tell anybody? Teehee. I see what you did there.
Have you ever been to New Mexico? Unfortunately, no.
I wish to know this too, plus your rank! I'm not a pilot. I used to have a civil license, but had to discontinue flying because I couldn't afford it anymore. I work as an master mechanic / engineer in the GAF, I prep said Tornados for deployment, they get "souped up" a little.
My rank is somewhere between a Sergeant and a Staff Sergeant.
As a soldier, I get basic combat training as well, it's not "just" a wrenching job. The Air Force secures their own airports/aircraft, that's not something the Army does, so we get combat training as well.
LUFTWAFFLE! Blue Luftwaffle! ...I'll show myself out.
I am in the US Air Force and I wanna say thanks for posting this. This was a genuinely interesting read. Thank you. If you have interesting anecdotes or surprising differences to share, please do not hesitate to do so! Thank you for your service!
The things they did, the engeneering and the flying of these machines is pretty awesome. Even old records of them are amazing to watch. But you still should differ the flying and engeneering from their purpose. Very true.
As a german: I do not think many germans know they still have an air force. Very true. I get that a lot.
People see it pretty much as a waste of money. Also Germans don't really care for veterans, it's fairly often in the news that traumatised Soldiers don't get enough help (eg. therapy, money) Yes, the Military Budget gets cut every year because of that. Since the military hardly had have any "live action" experience since WWII, soldiers experiencing Post Traumatic Stress Disorder after coming back from Afghanistan were a new thing to the government back in 2001. It took them some time to get advice from NATO Partners, like the US, which had made that experience in Vietnam, Korea and Iraq. German soldiers were deployed in Kosovo before Afghanistan, too, but obviously were the conditions in Kosovo not as far as bad as in Afghanistan. I have been to neither, so I can't tell from experience.
Statt Mumm in den Knochen hat die deutsche Luftwaffe Mumm im Kuehlschrank. That's from a movie, right? I know I've heard that before, but I cannot point my finger at it... help, anyone?
Mein Herr, Just wanted to let you know I think your country is beautiful. I was there several times and found everyone to be very warm, friendly, genuinely helpful. Thanks to your country for helping a traveler away from home. Thank you for your kind words, good sir! I'm really glad you like it.
This guy likes Pils. Praise the Lord!!! :P. I'd also liked to know how much freetime do you have for family, gf/wife and friends. I start out every day at 7am, get out at 4pm, have an hour drive back home, then I can spend time with my family like every other middle-class working person else. That might change whenever I'm being stationed farther away from home, and of course every time you have to attend classes and courses all over Germany to catch up on new technology or for special kinds of military training. When German soldiers are being deployed, it's usually for 4-6 months.
As a Dutch guy: Thank you for your service to protect people against what is bad. Ps. I'm related to the Messerschmitt's. Really? That is awesome. My dad's coworker is one of the Messerschmitt's sons! Tell them I said hi :)
Last updated: 2012-09-10 22:51 UTC
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