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Welcome to /roulette! Use this community to share your experiences playing roulette. Rien ne va plus.
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Primedice & Bitcoin Gambling

Bitcoin gambling & www.primedice.com discussion. Find out why Bitcoin is the future of online gaming, betting & casinos!
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Baccarat: Best Bet in the House

Discuss strategies for riding trends, which casinos offer the best games, card counting for side bets, and all things baccarat.
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General Election Polling Discussion Thread (September 2nd, 2020)

Introduction

Welcome to the /politics polling discussion thread for the general election. As the election nears, polling of both the national presidential popular vote and important swing states is ramping up, and with both parties effectively deciding on nominees, pollsters can get in the field to start assessing the state of the presidential race. Please use this thread to discuss polling and the general state of the presidential or congressional election. Below, you'll find some of the most recent polls, but this is by no means exhaustive, as well as some links to prognosticators sharing election models.
As always though, polls don't vote, people do. Regardless of whether your candidate is doing well or poorly, democracy only works when people vote, and there are always at least a couple polling misses every cycle, some of which are pretty high profile. If you haven't yet done so, please take some time to register to vote or check your registration status.

Polls

Below is a collection of recent polling of the US Presidential election. This is likely incomplete and also omits the generic congressional ballot as well as Senate/House/Gubernatorial numbers that may accompany these polls. Please use the discussion space below to discuss any additional polls not covered. Additionally, not all polls are created equal. If this is your first time looking at polls, the FiveThirtyEight pollster ratings page is a helpful tool to assess historic partisan lean in certain pollsters, as well as their past performance.
With the conclusion of both major parties’ nominating conventions, pollsters scrambled into the field to conduct polls of swing states and the national race. The result has been a slew of high quality pollsters releasing their numbers on Wednesday as well as today, which paint a picture of the electorate right after the candidates are expected to have received a temporary convention bounce.
Poll Date Type Biden Trump
Quinnipiac University 9-3 Florida 48 45
Quinnipiac University 9-3 Pennsylvania 52 44
Monmouth University 9-3 North Carolina 48 46
Monmouth University 9-3 North Carolina 47 45
Monmouth University 9-3 North Carolina 48 46
Rasmussen Reports 9-3 Pennsylvania 47 48
Harper Polling 9-3 Minnesota 48 45
USC Dornsife 9-3 National 50 42
USC Dornsife 9-3 National 51 42
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 52 42
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 52 42
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 51 42
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 51 43
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 52 42
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 51 42
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 53 42
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 50 43
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 50 43
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 50 42
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 50 42
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 50 43
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 50 43
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 50 43
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 50 43
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 48 45
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 50 43
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 51 42
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 51 43
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 50 43
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 50 44
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 51 43
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 50 41
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 52 41
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 49 43
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 50 43
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 50 42
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 51 42
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 50 42
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 51 42
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 51 41
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 51 43
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 51 42
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 51 41
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 51 41
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 51 41
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 49 42
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 50 41
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 49 42
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 50 41
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 50 41
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 50 40
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 51 40
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 48 44
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 48 45
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 49 43
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 47 45
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 49 44
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 48 44
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 48 46
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 48 45
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 50 44
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 50 42
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 50 44
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 51 43
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 51 41
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 51 41
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 50 40
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 49 45
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 50 44
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 48 46
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 48 45
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 49 45
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 49 45
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 49 44
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 49 44
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 48 45
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 48 45
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 49 44
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 49 44
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 49 44
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 49 44
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 48 45
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 48 45
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 49 45
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 49 45
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 50 44
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 49 45
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 49 44
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 48 44
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 49 43
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 49 43
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 49 43
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 48 43
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 50 42
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 48 44
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 48 44
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 48 44
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 49 44
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 48 44
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 49 43
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 50 43
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 49 44
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 49 44
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 48 44
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 49 43
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 48 43
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 48 44
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 48 43
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 48 42
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 47 44
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 49 44
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 48 43
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 48 43
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 47 44
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 49 43
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 49 42
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 49 43
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 47 44
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 48 43
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 49 43
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 48 43
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 48 44
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 47 45
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 47 45
Morning Consult 9-2 Wisconsin 47 45
Fox News 9-2 Wisconsin 49 41
Fox News 9-2 North Carolina 49 45
Fox News 9-2 Wisconsin 50 42
Fox News 9-2 North Carolina 50 46
Fox News 9-2 Arizona 49 40
Fox News 9-2 Arizona 49 39
Ipsos 9-2 National 43 38
SSRS 9-2 National 51 43
Harris Insights & Analytics 9-2 National 46 40
Morning Consult 9-2 National 51 43
Morning Consult 9-2 National 51 43
Morning Consult 9-2 National 50 43
Morning Consult 9-2 National 51 44
Morning Consult 9-2 National 52 42
Morning Consult 9-2 National 51 43
Quinnipiac University 9-2 National 52 42
Qriously 9-2 National 46 41
Opinium 9-2 Florida 50 43
Opinium 9-2 Wisconsin 53 39
IBD 9-2 National 49 41
YouGov 9-2 National 51 40
Rasmussen Reports 9-2 National 48 45
Monmouth University 9-2 Pennsylvania 49 46
Monmouth University 9-2 Pennsylvania 49 45
Monmouth University 9-2 Pennsylvania 48 47
Suffolk University 9-2 National 46 41
Ipsos 9-2 National 47 40
USC Dornsife 9-2 National 51 42
USC Dornsife 9-2 National 51 41
Opinium 9-2 National 53 39
Suffolk University 9-2 National 49 43
Selzer & Co. 9-2 National 49 41
Redfield & Wilton Strategies 9-1 National 49 40
Landmark Communications 9-1 Georgia 40 47
East Carolina University 9-1 North Carolina 46 48
Public Policy Polling 9-1 Michigan 48 44
Expedition Strategies 9-1 Montana 44 48
University of Nevada, Las Vegas 9-1 Nevada 44 38
Morning Consult 9-1 National 52 43
Morning Consult 9-1 National 51 43
Morning Consult 9-1 Texas 47 48
Morning Consult 9-1 Florida 49 47
Morning Consult 9-1 Pennsylvania 49 45
Morning Consult 9-1 National 51 43
Morning Consult 9-1 North Carolina 49 47
Morning Consult 9-1 Ohio 45 50
Morning Consult 9-1 Minnesota 50 43
Morning Consult 9-1 Florida 50 45
Morning Consult 9-1 Georgia 49 46
Morning Consult 9-1 Michigan 50 44
Morning Consult 9-1 Georgia 46 47
Morning Consult 9-1 Colorado 51 41
Morning Consult 9-1 Wisconsin 52 43
Morning Consult 9-1 Michigan 52 42
Morning Consult 9-1 Arizona 52 42
Morning Consult 9-1 Colorado 51 41
Morning Consult 9-1 Texas 46 47
Morning Consult 9-1 Minnesota 50 42
Morning Consult 9-1 Ohio 45 49
Morning Consult 9-1 North Carolina 49 46
Morning Consult 9-1 Pennsylvania 50 44
Morning Consult 9-1 Arizona 45 47
USC Dornsife 9-1 National 51 41
USC Dornsife 9-1 National 51 41
Léger 9-1 National 49 42
AtlasIntel 9-1 National 49 46
Emerson College 8-31 National 51 48
RMG Research 8-31 National 48 44
Global Strategy Group 8-31 Pennsylvania 53 43
Global Strategy Group 8-31 Pennsylvania 50 42
Public Policy Polling 8-31 Georgia 47 46
Harris Insights & Analytics 8-31 National 47 38
GQR Research (GQRR) 8-31 Pennsylvania 52 43
Trafalgar Group 8-31 Missouri 41 51
USC Dornsife 8-31 National 53 40
USC Dornsife 8-31 National 52 40
John Zogby Strategies 8-30 National 45 42
John Zogby Strategies 8-30 National 48 42
USC Dornsife 8-30 National 54 39
USC Dornsife 8-30 National 53 39

Election Predictions

Prognosticators

Prognosticators are folks who make projected electoral maps, often on the strength of educated guesses as well as inside information in some cases from campaigns sharing internals with the teams involved. Below are a few of these prognosticators and their assessment of the state of the race:

Polling Models

Polling models are similar to prognosticators (and often the model authors will act like pundits as well), but tend to be about making "educated guesses" on the state of the election. Generally, the models are structured to take in data such as polls and electoral fundamentals, and make a guess based on research on prior elections as to the state of the race in each state. Below are a few of the more prominent models that are online or expected to be online soon:

Prediction Markets

Prediction markets are betting markets where people put money on the line to estimate the likelihood of one party winning a seat or state. Most of these markets will also tend to move depending on polling and other socioeconomic factors in the same way that prognosticators and models will work. Predictit and Election Betting Odds are prominent in this space, although RealClearPolitics has an aggregate of other betting sites as well.
submitted by TheUnknownStitcher to politics [link] [comments]

General Election Polling Discussion Thread (August 16, 2020)

Introduction

Welcome to the /politics polling discussion thread for the general election. As the election nears, polling of both the national presidential popular vote and important swing states is ramping up, and with both parties effectively deciding on nominees, pollsters can get in the field to start assessing the state of the presidential race. Please use this thread to discuss polling and the general state of the presidential or congressional election. Below, you'll find some of the most recent polls, but this is by no means exhaustive, as well as some links to prognosticators sharing election models.
As always though, polls don't vote, people do. Regardless of whether your candidate is doing well or poorly, democracy only works when people vote, and there are always at least a couple polling misses every cycle, some of which are pretty high profile. If you haven't yet done so, please take some time to register to vote or check your registration status.

Polls

Below is a collection of recent polling of the US Presidential election. This is likely incomplete and also omits the generic congressional ballot as well as Senate/House/Gubernatorial numbers that may accompany these polls. Please use the discussion space below to discuss any additional polls not covered. Additionally, not all polls are created equal. If this is your first time looking at polls, the FiveThirtyEight pollster ratings page is a helpful tool to assess historic partisan lean in certain pollsters, as well as their past performance.
This is likely to be one of the last clear snapshots of polling until at least mid-September. Historically speaking, the party conventions impart a statistically significant 'bump' in candidates' poll numbers. This convention bounce averages around 5 points for candidates (though some candidates have far surpassed this number), but the trend of high bounces has seen a decline in recent elections. With increased coverage of each party during their respective conventions (DNC: August 17-20, RNC: August 24-27), and this year's conventions taking place in a mostly-remote setting, it is hard to predict how large or any impact on the polls will be.
Poll Date Type Biden Trump
NBC News 8-16 National 50 41
SurveyUSA 8-15 Connecticut 52 32
Redfield & Wilton Strategies 8-14 California 61 25
Data for Progress 8-14 National 51 41
Data for Progress 8-14 National 52 39
YouGov 8-14 Massachusetts 61 28
Global Strategy Group 8-14 National 52 42
Marist College 8-14 National 53 42
Fox News 8-13 National 49 42
Léger 8-13 National 46 --
Léger 8-13 National 47 39
Pew Research Center 8-13 National 53 45
Morning Consult 8-13 National 51 42
Morning Consult 8-13 National 50 43
Morning Consult 8-13 National 50 43
Harper Polling 8-13 North Carolina 45 44
Morning Consult 8-13 National 51 43
Garin-Hart-Yang Research Group 8-13 Mississippi 43 53
SurveyUSA 8-13 California 56 28
Rasmussen Reports 8-13 Wisconsin 55 42
Harris Insights & Analytics 8-12 National 44 40
Ipsos 8-12 National 47 38
Ipsos 8-12 National 43 37
Ipsos 8-12 National 56 43
Ipsos 8-12 National 58 42
SurveyUSA 8-12 Kansas 41 48
YouGov Blue 8-12 National 51 45
Rasmussen Reports 8-12 National 49 43
Critical Insights 8-12 Maine 45 38
YouGov 8-12 National 49 39
Morning Consult 8-12 National 49 40
Change Research 8-12 National 50 44
Change Research 8-12 Wisconsin 47 43
Change Research 8-12 North Carolina 47 48
Change Research 8-12 Arizona 45 44
Change Research 8-12 Florida 50 44
Change Research 8-12 Michigan 48 43
Change Research 8-12 Pennsylvania 48 44
MassINC Polling Group 8-12 Massachusetts 63 27
Emerson College 8-11 Pennsylvania 53 46
Emerson College 8-11 North Carolina 49 50
Emerson College 8-11 Arizona 53 46
Critical Insights 8-11 Maine 44 36
Critical Insights 8-11 Maine CD-2 39 38
Critical Insights 8-11 Maine CD-1 49 33
Marquette University Law School 8-11 Wisconsin 50 45
Marquette University Law School 8-11 Wisconsin 50 46
Monmouth University 8-11 National 52 39
Monmouth University 8-11 National 51 41
Emerson College 8-11 Minnesota 51 49
SurveyUSA 8-11 Georgia 46 44
Public Policy Polling 8-10 North Carolina 49 46
Rasmussen Reports 8-10 North Carolina 47 48
HIT Strategies 8-10 North Carolina 47 37
HIT Strategies 8-10 Georgia 44 40
Trafalgar Group 8-10 Arizona 44 46
RMG Research 8-10 National 45 37
RMG Research 8-10 Maine 50 39
Georgetown University (Battleground) 8-10 National 53 39
OH Predictive Insights 8-10 Arizona 49 45
Strategies 360 8-10 Nebraska CD-1 46 48
YouGov 8-10 Wisconsin 49 43
YouGov 8-10 Michigan 47 43
YouGov 8-10 Pennsylvania 50 41

Election Predictions

Prognosticators

Prognosticators are folks who make projected electoral maps, often on the strength of educated guesses as well as inside information in some cases from campaigns sharing internals with the teams involved. Below are a few of these prognosticators and their assessment of the state of the race:

Polling Models

Polling models are similar to prognosticators (and often the model authors will act like pundits as well), but tend to be about making "educated guesses" on the state of the election. Generally, the models are structured to take in data such as polls and electoral fundamentals, and make a guess based on research on prior elections as to the state of the race in each state. Below are a few of the more prominent models that are online or expected to be online soon:

Prediction Markets

Prediction markets are betting markets where people put money on the line to estimate the likelihood of one party winning a seat or state. Most of these markets will also tend to move depending on polling and other socioeconomic factors in the same way that prognosticators and models will work. Predictit and Election Betting Odds are prominent in this space, although RealClearPolitics has an aggregate of other betting sites as well.
submitted by TheUnknownStitcher to politics [link] [comments]

Tartaria: The Supposed Mega-Empire of Inner Eurasia

Introduction

For those not in the know, the Tartaria conspiracy theory is one of the most bizarre pieces of pseudo history out there. Its core notion is that the region known as ‘Tartaria’ or ‘Grand Tartary’ in Early Modern European maps was not simply a vague geographical designate, but in fact a vast, centralised empire. Said empire emerged… at some point, and it disappeared… at some point, but for… some reason, its existence has been covered up to suit… some narrative or another. As you can tell, there’s a lot of diverse ideas here, and the fact that there hasn’t been the equivalent of a Christological schism every time a controversial thread goes up is really quite impressive. While this post will primarily address one particular piece of writing that is at the core of Tartaria conspiracy theorising, I’ll include a few tidbits to show you just how much madness its adherents have come up with. But first, some background.

State of Play, and why I’m doing this

The Tartaria theory has a small but active following on subreddits such as Tartaria, tartarianarchitecture, and CulturalLayer, which as of writing have around 5,300, 2,400 and 23,000 subscribers, respectively, but it’s clear from the 8 questions on the topic asked at AskHistorians since January 2019 and this debunk request from June that it’s a theory that has somewhat broad appeal and can reach beyond its core niche. This is unsurprising given how little education most people in the West receive about basically anything east of Greece: simply put, the reality of Eurasian history is just not something most of us are taught. And if we don’t know the reality of Eurasian history to begin with, or if we do then it's all in bits and pieces where we might not even know a basic set of dates and names, then what seems to be a pretty developed narrative about a lost empire actually turns out rather plausible.
Unfortunately, many debunks of the Tartaria narrative come from people pushing competing conspiracy theories, like this guy claiming that there’s a global Jewish Phoenecian conspiracy and that Tartaria is simply rehashing the notion that Khazars were Jews in order to distract from the real Phoenecian threat at the heart of global society or some nonsense like that. (I don’t really care, I died of laughter after page 3.) Now, there are those coming from serious perspectives, but they focus largely on the problems with Tartaria as a concept rather than addressing the more specific claims being made. This is of course valuable in its own right (shoutout to Kochevnik81 for their responses to the AskHistorians threads), but we can go deeper by really striking at the roots of this ‘theory’ – what is the ‘evidence’ they’re presenting? But to do that, we need to find out what the origins of the ‘theory' are, and thus what its linchpins are. Incidentally, it is because of some recent events regarding those origins that I’ve been finally prompted to write this post.

Where does it come from?

My attempts to find the exact origins of the Tartaria conspiracy have been not entirely fruitful, as the connections I’ve found have been relatively circumstantial at best. But as far as I can tell, it at least partially originates with that Russian pseudohistorian we all know and love, Anatoly Fomenko. Fomenko is perhaps best known in the English-speaking world for his 7-volume ‘epic’ from 2002, History: Fiction or Science?, but in fact he’s been pushing a complete ‘New Chronology’ since the publication of Novaia khronologia in Russian in 1995. While the New Chronology is best known for its attempt to explain away most of the Middle Ages as a hoax created by the Papacy on the basis of bad astronomy, it also asserts a number of things about Russian history from the Kievan Rus’ to the Romanovs. Key to the Tartaria theory is its claim that there was a vast Slavo-Turkic ‘Russian Horde’ based out of ‘Tartaria’ which dominated Eurasia until the last ‘Horde’ ruler, Boris Godunov, was overthrown by the European Mikhail Romanov. This, of course, is a clear attempt at countering the notion of a ‘Tatar Yoke’ over Russia, as you can’t have a ‘Tatar Yoke’ if the Tatars were Russians all along. Much as I’d like to explain that in more detail here, I don’t have to: in 2004, Konstantin Sheiko at the University of Wollongong wrote an entire PhD thesis looking at the claims of Fomenko’s New Chronology and contextualising them within currents of Russian nationalism, which can be accessed online.
But I personally suspect that if there are Fomenko connections as far as Tartaria specifically is concerned, they are limited. For one, at one stage users on the Tartaria subreddit seemed unfamiliar with Fomenko, and there are those arguing that Fomenko had ‘rewritten’ Tartarian history to be pro-Russian. This is why I said that the evidence was circumstantial. The only other link to Fomenko is indirect: the CulturalLayer sidebar lists the ‘New Chronology Resource Collection’ and the audiobook of History: Fiction or Science? under ‘Essential Resources’, and Tartaria in its ‘Related Subs’.
As far as I can tell, the ultimate origin of its developed form on the Anglophone web traces back to this post on the StolenHistory forums, posted on 17 April 2018. This makes some chronological sense: only one post on CulturalLayer that mentions Tartaria predates this. Moreover, KorbenDallas, the OP of the thread, was also the forum’s chief admin, and given that StolenHistory is still (as of writing) the top resource on CulturalLayer’s sidebar, that suggests significant influence. However, using the search function on camas.reddit.io, it was mentioned at least 9 times before then, with the first mention, on 10 January 2018, mentioning that the ‘theory’ had been doing the rounds on the Russian web for at least 5 years. Nevertheless, as the detail in these early comments is sparse and generally refers only to speculation about maps, it is probably fair to say that the first in-depth English-language formulation of the Tartaria ‘theory’ was thus the April 2018 forum post. Funnily enough, it is not cited often on Tartaria, but that subreddit was created on 27 December, long after discussion had been taking place on places like CulturalLayer, and combined with the ‘mudflood’ ‘theory’ and the notion of giant humans, which are not significant features of the StolenHistory thread. This more convoluted and multifaceted version of the Tartaria theory doesn’t really have a single-document articulation, hence me not covering it here.
It is this StolenHistory thread which I will be looking at here today. Not just because it seems to be at the heart of it all, but also because it got shut down around 36 hours ago as of writing this post, based on the timestamps of panicked ‘what happened to StolenHistory’ posts on CulturalLayer and Tartaria. So what better occasion to go back to the Wayback Machine’s version, seeing as it’s now quite literally impossible to brigade the source? Now as I’ve said, this is not the most batshit insane it gets for the Tartaria crowd, in fact it’s incredibly tame. But by the end of it, I bet you’ll be thinking ‘if this is mild, how much more worse is the modern stuff!?’ And the best part is, I can debunk most of it without recourse to any other sources at all, because so much of it involves them posting sources out of context or expecting them to be read tendentiously.
But that’s enough background. Let us begin.

Part 1: The Existence

Exhibit 1: The Encylcopædia Britannica, 1771

”Tartary, a vast country in the northern parts of Asia, bounded by Siberia on the north and west: this is called Great Tartary. The Tartars who lie south of Muscovy and Siberia, are those of Astracan, Circassia, and Dagistan, situated north-west of the Caspian-sea; the Calmuc Tartars, who lie between Siberia and the Caspian-sea; the Usbec Tartars and Moguls, who lie north of Persia and India; and lastly, those of Tibet, who lie north-west of China.” - Encyclopædia Britannica, Vol. III, Edinburgh, 1771, p. 887.
Starting a post about the ‘hidden’ history of Central Asia with an encyclopædia entry from Scotland is really getting off to a good start, isn’t it? Anyone with a sense of basic geography can tell you that Tibet lies due west of China, not northwest. But more importantly, this shows you how single-minded the Tartaria advocates are and how tendentiously they read things. ‘Country’ need not actually refer to a state entity, it can just be a geographical space, especially in more archaic contexts such as this. Moreover, the ethnographic division of the ‘Tartars’ into Astrakhanis, Circassians, Dagestanis, Kalmuks, Uzbeks, and, for whatever reason, Tibetans, pretty clearly goes against the notion of a unified Tartary.
Now compare to the description given by Wikipedia, ”Tartary (Latin: Tartaria) or Great Tartary (Latin: Tartaria Magna) was a name used from the Middle Ages until the twentieth century to designate the great tract of northern and central Asia stretching from the Caspian Sea and the Ural Mountains to the Pacific Ocean, settled mostly by Turko-Mongol peoples after the Mongol invasion and the subsequent Turkic migrations.”
Obviously, Wikipedia is not a good source for… anything, really, but the fact that they’re giving a 349-year-old encyclopaedia primacy over the summary sentence of a wiki article is demonstrative of how much dishonesty is behind this. And it only gets worse from here.

Exhibit 2: Hermann Moll’s A System of Geography, 1701

THE Country of Tartary, call'd Great Tartary, to distinguish it from the Lesser, in Europe, has for its Boundaries, on the West, the Caspian Sea, and Moscovitick Tartary; on the North, the Scythian, or Tartarian Sea; on the East, the Sea of the Kalmachites, and the Straight of Jesso; and on the South, China, India, or the Dominions of the great Mogul and Persia : So that it is apparently the largest Region of the whole Continent of Asia, extending it self [sic] farthest, both towards the North and East: In the modern Maps, it is plac'd within the 70th and 170th Degree of Longitude, excluding Muscovitick Tartary; as also between the 40 and 72 Degree of Northern Latitude.
Immediately underneath the scan of this text is the statement, clearly highlighted, that
Tartary was not a tract. It was a country.
Hmm, very emphatic there. Except wait no, the same semantic problem recurs. ‘Country’ need not mean ‘state’. Moreover, in the very same paragraph, Moll (or rather his translator) refers to Tartary as a ‘Region’, which very much disambiguates the idea. Aside from that, it is telling that Moll refers to three distinct ‘Tartaries’: ’Great Tartary’ in Asia, ‘Lesser Tartary’ in Europe, and ‘Muscovite Tartary’ – that is, the eastern territories of the Russian Tsardom. If, as they are saying, ‘Great Tartary’ was a coherent entity, whatever happened to ‘Lesser Tartary’?

Exhibit 3: A 1957 report by the CIA on ‘National Cultural Development Under Communism’

Is a conspiracy theorist… actually believing a CIA document? Yep. I’ll add some context later that further complicates the issue.
Or let us take the matter of history, which, along with religion, language and literature, constitute the core of a people’s cultural heritage. Here again the Communists have interfered in a shameless manner. For example, on 9 August 1944, the Central Committee of the Communist Party, sitting in Moscow, issued a directive ordering the party’s Tartar Provincial Committee “to proceed to a scientific revolution of the history of Tartaria, to liquidate serious shortcomings and mistakes of a nationalistic character committed by individual writers and historians in dealing with Tartar history.” In other words, Tartar history was to be rewritten—let its be frank, was to be falsified—in order to eliminate references to Great Russian aggressions and to hide the facts of the real course of Tartar-Russian relations.
[similar judgement on Soviet rewriting of histories of Muslim areas to suit a pro-Russian agenda]
What’s fascinating about the inclusion of this document is that it is apparently often invoked as a piece of anti-Fomenko evidence, by tying New Chronology in with older Russian-nationalist Soviet revisionism. So not only is it ironic that they’re citing a CIA document, of all things, but a CIA document often used to undermine the spiritual founder of the whole Tartaria ‘theory’ in the first place! But to return to the point, the fundamental issue is that it’s tendentious. This document from 1957 obviously is not going to be that informed on the dynamics of Central Asian ethnicity and history in the way that a modern scholar would be.
In a broader sense, what this document is supposed to prove is that Soviet coverups are why we don’t know about Tartaria. But if most of the evidence came from Western Europe to begin with, why would a Soviet coverup matter? Why wasn’t Tartarian history deployed as a counter-narrative during the Cold War?

Exhibit 4: ‘An 1855 Source’

This is from a footnote in Sir George Cornwalle Lewis’ An Inquiry into the Credibility of the Early Roman History, citing a travelogue by Evariste Huc that had been published in French in 1850 and was soon translated into English. From the digitised version of of Huc’s book on Project Gutenberg (emphasis copied over from the thread):
Such remains of ancient cities are of no unfrequent occurrence in the deserts of Mongolia; but everything connected with their origin and history is buried in darkness. Oh, with what sadness does such a spectacle fill the soul! The ruins of Greece, the superb remains of Egypt,—all these, it is true, tell of death; all belong to the past; yet when you gaze upon them, you know what they are; you can retrace, in memory, the revolutions which have occasioned the ruins and the decay of the country around them. Descend into the tomb, wherein was buried alive the city of Herculaneum,—you find there, it is true, a gigantic skeleton, but you have within you historical associations wherewith to galvanize it. But of these old abandoned cities of Tartary, not a tradition remains; they are tombs without an epitaph, amid solitude and silence, uninterrupted except when the wandering Tartars halt, for a while, within the ruined enclosures, because there the pastures are richer and more abundant.
There’s a paraphrase from Lewis as well, but you can just read it on the thread. The key thing here is that yes, there were abandoned settlements in the steppe. Why must this be indicative of a lost sedentary civilisation, and not instead the remnants of political capitals of steppe federations which were abandoned following those federations’ collapse? Places like Karakorum, Kubak Zar, Almaliq and Sarai were principally built around political functions, being centres for concentration of religious and ritual authority (especially monasteries) and stores of non-movable (or difficult to move) wealth. But individual examples of abandoned settlements are not evidence of broad patterns of settlement that came to be abandoned en masse. Indeed, the very fact that the cited shepherd calls the abandoned location ‘The Old Town’ in the singular implies just how uncommon such sites were – for any given region, there might really only be one of note.

Exhibit 5: Ethnic characteristics in artistic depictions of Chinggis and Timur

I… don’t quite know what to make of these.
Today, we have certain appearance related stereotypes. I think we are very much off there. It looks like Tartary was multi-religious, and multi-cultural. One of the reasons I think so is the tremendous disparity between what leaders like Genghis Khan, Batu Khan, Timur aka Tamerlane looked like to the contemporary artists vs. the appearance attributed to them today.
Ummm, what?
These are apparently what they look like today. These are ‘contemporary’ depictions of Chinggis:
Except, as the guy posting the thread says, these are 15th-18th century depictions… so NOT CONTEMPORARY.
As for Timur, we have:
In what bizzaro world are these contemporary?
We’ll get to Batur Khan in a moment because that’s its own kettle of worms. But can this user not recognise that artists tend to depict things in ways that are familiar? Of course white European depictions of Chinggis and Timur will tend to make them look like white Europeans, while East Asian depictions of Chinggis will tend to make him look Asian, and Middle Eastern depictions of Chinggis and Timur will make them look Middle Eastern. This doesn’t prove that ‘Tartaria’ was multicultural, in fact it you’d have an easier time using this ‘evidence’ to argue that Chinggis and Timur were shapeshifters who could change ethnicities at will!

Exhibit 6: Turkish sculptures

Why this person thinks modern Turkish sculptures are of any use to anyone baffles me. The seven sculptures shown are of Batu Khan (founder of the ‘Golden Horde’/Jochid khanates), Timur, Bumin (founder of the First Turkic Khaganate), Ertugrul (father of Osman, the founder of the Ottoman empire), Babur (founder of the Mughal Empire), Attila the Hun, and Kutlug Bilge Khagan (founder of the Uyghur Khaganate). They are accompanied (except in the case of Ertugrul) by the dates of the empires/confederations that they founded – hence, for instance, Babur’s dates being 1526 to 1858, the lifespan of the Mughal Empire, or Timur’s being 1368 (which seems arbitrary) to 1507 (the fall of Herat to the Shaybanids). To quote the thread:
A few of them I do not know, but the ones I do look nothing like what I was taught at school. Also dates are super bizarre on those plaques.
Again, Turkish sculptors make Turkic people look like Turks. Big surprise. And the dates are comprehensible if you just take a moment to think.
Do Turks know something we don't?
Turkish, evidently.

Exhibit 7: A map from 1652 that the user can’t even read

The other reason why I think Tartary had to be multi-religious, and multi-cultural is its vastness during various moments in time. For example in 1652 Tartary appears to have control over the North America.
https://web.archive.org/web/20200701065421im_/https://www.stolenhistory.org/attachments/1652-nova-totius-terrarum-orbis-geographica-ac-hydrographica-tabula_1-1-jpg.37277/
This speaks for itself.
The thread was later edited to include a link to a post on ‘Tartarians’ in North America made on 7 August 2018, but that’s beside the point here, read at your own leisure (if you can call it ‘leisure’). Except for the part where at one point he admits he can’t read Latin, and so his entire theory in that post is based on the appearance of the word ‘Tartarorum’ in an unspecified context on a map of North America.

Part 2: The Coverup

The official history is hiding a major world power which existed as late as the 19th century. Tartary was a country with its own flag, its own government and its own place on the map. Its territory was huge, but somehow quietly incorporated into Russia, and some other countries. This country you can find on the maps predating the second half of the 19th century.
…Okay then.

Exhibit 8: Google Ngrams

https://web.archive.org/web/20200701065421im_/https://www.stolenhistory.org/attachments/tartary_ngram-jpg.37276/
This screenshot shows that the use of ‘Tartary’ and ‘Tartaria’ declined significantly over time. This is apparently supposed to surprise us. Or maybe it shows that we actually understand the region better…

Part 1a: Back to the existence

You know, a common theme with historical conspiracy theories is how badly they’re laid out, in the literal sense of the layout of their documents and video content. Don’t make a header called ‘The Coverup’ and then only have one thing before jumping back to the evidence for the existence again.

Exhibit 9: A Table

Yet, some time in the 18th century Tartary Muskovite was the biggest country in the world: 3,050,000 square miles.
https://web.archive.org/web/20200701065421im_/https://www.stolenhistory.org/attachments/tartary_huge-13-jpg.37329/
I do not have enough palms to slap into my face. Do they not understand that this is saying how much of Tartary was owned… by foreign powers?

Exhibit 10: Book covers

You can look at the images on the thread itself but here’s a few highlights:
Histories of the Qing conquest of China, because as far as Europeans were concerned the Manchus were Tartars. Proof of Tartaria because…?
An ambassador who never set foot in ‘Tartary’ itself, cool cool, very good evidence there.
There’s also three screenshots from books that aren’t even specifically named, so impossible to follow up. Clearly this is all we need.

Exhibit 11: Maps

The maps are the key think the Tartaria pushers use. All these maps showing ‘Grand Tartary’ or ‘Tartaria’ or what have you. There’s 20 of these here and you can look for yourselves, but the key thing is: why do these people assume that this referred to a single state entity? Because any of these maps that include the world more generally will also present large parts of Africa in generic terms, irrespective of actual political organisation in these regions. And many of the later maps clearly show the tripartite division of the region into ‘Chinese Tartary’, ‘Russian Tartary’, and ‘Independent Tartary’, which you think would be clear evidence that most of this region was controlled by, well, the Chinese (really, the Manchus) and the Russians. And many of these maps aren’t even maps of political organisation, but geographical space. See how many lump all of mainland Southeast Asia into ‘India’. Moreover, the poor quality of the mapping should give things away. This one for instance is very clear on the Black Sea coast, but the Caspian is a blob, and moreover, a blob that’s elongated along the wrong axis! They’re using Western European maps as an indicator of Central Asian realities in the most inept way possible, and it would be sad if it weren’t so hilarious. The fact that the depictions of the size of Tartaria are incredibly inconsistent also seems not to matter.

Exhibit 12: The Tartarian Language

There’s an 1849 American newspaper article referring to the ‘Tartarian’ language, which is very useful thank you, and definitely not more reflective of American ignorance than actual linguistic reality.
The next one is more interesting, because it’s from a translation of some writing by a French Jesuit, referring to the writing of Manchu, and who asserted (with very little clear evidence) that it could be read in any direction. In April last year, Tartaria users [claimed to have stumbled on a dictionary of Tartarian and French](np.reddit.com/Tartaria/comments/bi3aph/tartarian_language_dictionary/) called the Dictionnaire Tartare-Mantchou-François. What they failed to realise is that the French generally called the Manchus ‘Tartare-Mantchou’, and this was in fact a Manchu-French dictionary. In other words, a [Tartare-Mantchou]-[François] dictionary, not a [Tartare]-[Mantchou]-[François] dictionary. It is quite plausible, in fact probable, that the ‘Tartarian’ referred to in the newspaper article was Manchu.

Exhibit 13: Genealogies of Tartarian Kings

Descended From Genghiscan
Reads the comment above this French chart. How the actual hell did OP not recognise that ‘Genghiscan’ is, erm, Genghis Khan? Is it that hard to understand that maybe, just maybe, ‘Tartars’ was what they called Mongols back in the day, and ‘Tartaria’ the Mongol empire and its remnants?

Exhibit 14: Ethnographic drawings

These prove that there were people called Tartars, not that there was a state of Tartaria. NEXT

Exhibit 15: Tartaria’s alleged flag

Images they provide include
https://web.archive.org/web/20200701065421im_/https://www.stolenhistory.org/attachments/tartary_flags-11-jpg.37367/
https://web.archive.org/web/20200701065421im_/https://www.stolenhistory.org/attachments/tartary_flag_6-jpg.37307/
Except there’s one problem. As any EU4 player will tell you, that’s the flag of the Khanate of Kazan. And while they can trot out a few 18th and 19th century charts showing the apparent existence of a Tartarian naval flag, the inconvenient fact that Tartaria would have been landlocked seems not to get in the way. To be sure, their consistent inclusion is odd, given the non-existence of Tartary as a country, and moreover its landlocked status. It seems plausible that the consistent similarity of the designs is just a result of constant copying and poor checking, but on its own it means relatively little.

Exhibit 16: 19th-century racism

https://web.archive.org/web/20200701065421im_/https://www.stolenhistory.org/attachments/flags_of_all_nations_1865-mongolian-1-jpg.37369/
That I think speaks for itself.

Exhibit 17: Flags of Moscow on one particular chart

It is also worth mentioning that in the British Flag Table of 1783, there are three different flags listed as a flag of the Tsar of Moscow. There is also an Imperial Flag of Russia as well as multiple naval flags. And all of them are proceeded by a flag of the Viceroy of Russia.
By that logic, the Royal Navy ran Britain because the Royal Navy ensigns precede the Union Jack. It’s simply a conscious decision to show the flags of individuals before the flags of states. The ‘Viceroy’ (unsure what the original Russian title would be) and ‘Czar’ of Muscovy would presumably be, well, the Emperor of Russia anyway, so as with the British section where the Royal Standard and the flags of naval officers came first, the same seems true of Russia. Also, as a side note, the placement of the USA at the end, after the Persians, the Mughals and ‘Tartarians’, is a fun touch.
Significance of the Viceroy is in the definition of the term. A viceroy is a regal official who runs a country, colony, city, province, or sub-national state, in the name of and as the representative of the monarch of the territory. Our official history will probably say that it was the Tsar of Russia who would appoint a viceroy of Moscow. I have reasons to doubt that.
Why is the flag of the Viceroy of Moscow positioned prior to any other Russian flag? Could it be that the Viceroy of Moscow was superior to its Czar, and was "supervising" how this Tartarian possession was being run?
No.

Part 3: 1812

This, this is where it gets really bonkers. A key part of this post is arguing that Napoleon’s invasion of Russia was a cover story for a joint invasion against Tartaria gone horrendously wrong. All the stops are being pulled out here.
There is a growing opinion in Russia that French invasion of Russia played out according to a different scenario. The one where Tsar Alexander I, and Napoleon were on the same side. Together they fought against Tartary. Essentially France and Saint Petersburg against Moscow (Tartary). And there is a strong circumstantial evidence to support such a theory.
Oh yes, we’re going there.
Questions to Answer:
1. Saint Petersburg was the capitol of Russia. Yet Napoleon chose to attack Moscow. Why?
He didn’t, he was trying to attack the Russian army. (credit to dandan_noodles).
2. It appears that in 1912 there was a totally different recollection of the events of 1812. How else could you explain commemorative 1912 medals honoring Napoleon?
Because it’s a bit of an in-your-face to Napoleon for losing so badly?
And specifically the one with Alexander I, and Napoleon on the same medal. The below medal says something similar to, "Strength is in the unity: will of God, firmness of royalty, love for homeland and people"
Yeah, it’s showing Alexander I beating Napoleon, and a triumphant double-headed Russian eagle above captured French standards. Also, notice how Alexander is in full regalia, while Napoleon’s is covered up by his greatcoat?
3. Similarity between Russian and French uniforms. There are more different uniforms involved, but the idea remains, they were ridiculously similar.
Ah yes, because fashions in different countries always develop separately, and never get influenced by each other.
How did they fight each other in the dark?
With difficulty, presumably.
Basically, he’s saying that this: https://web.archive.org/web/20200701065421im_/https://www.stolenhistory.org/attachments/1_rus-jpg.37322/
Is too similar to this: https://web.archive.org/web/20200701065421im_/https://www.stolenhistory.org/attachments/1_rus-jpg.37322/
To be coincidental.
OK, whatever. Here’s where it gets interesting:
There was one additional combat asset officially available to Russians in the war of 1812. And that was the Militia. It does appear that this so-called Militia, was in reality the army of Tartary fighting against Napoleon and Alexander I.
Russian VolunteeMilitia Units... Tartarians?
Clearly this man has never encountered the concept of a cossack, an opelchenie, or, erm, a GREATCOAT.
4. Russian nobility in Saint Petersburg spoke French well into the second half of the 19th century. The general explanation was, that it was the trend of time and fashion. Google contains multiple opinions on the matter. * Following the same logic, USA, Britain and Russia should've picked up German after the victory in WW2.
Clearly never heard of the term lingua franca then.
5. This one I just ran into: 19th-century fans were totally into a Napoleon/Alexander romance
https://web.archive.org/web/20200701065421im_/https://www.stolenhistory.org/attachments/treaties_of_tilsit_miniature_-france-_1810s-_side_a-jpg.37314/
https://web.archive.org/web/20200701065421im_/https://www.stolenhistory.org/attachments/napoleonxalexander2-jpg.37310/
https://web.archive.org/web/20200701065421im_/https://www.stolenhistory.org/attachments/napoleon-alexander-jpg.37312/
It is true that after the Treaty of Tilsit, Napoleon wrote to his wife, Josephine, that
I am pleased with [Emperor] Alexander; he ought to be with me. If he were a woman, I think I should make him my mistress.
But Napoleon’s ‘honeymoon period’ with Russia following the Treaty of Tilsit should not be seen as indicative of a permanent Napoleonic affection for Russia. Notably, Napoleon’s war with Russia didn’t just end in 1812. How are the Tartaria conspiracists going to explain the War of the Sixth Coalition, when Russian, Prussian and Austrian troops drove the French out of Germany? Did the bromance suddenly stop because of 1812? Or, is it more reasonable to see 1812 as the end result of the bromance falling apart?

Conclusions

So there you have it, Tartaria in all its glorious nonsensicalness. Words cannot capture how massively bonkers this entire thing is. And best of all, I hardly needed my own sources because so much of it is just a demonstration of terrible reading comprehension. Still, if you want to actually learn about some of the history of Inner Eurasia, see below:

Bibliography

submitted by EnclavedMicrostate to badhistory [link] [comments]

Debunking some more Star Wars wank

You know who I hate? People who talk about Star Wars on the internet.
For some reason the way Star Wars fans phrase their posts just fucking bugs me. They type like it's a college thesis, like they're a Star Wars intellectual, like people will think they're cool for their deep knowledge on the EU lore. I see this everywhere, in WhoWouldWin threads, in the comments of posts on here, even in the comments of my Star Wars RTs. There's always those one or two people who draft up a fucking essay, and the worst part is they always get their facts wrong while still speaking with that trademark air of false authority. They either mix canon and Legends or just use fan theory bullshit. God, I just hate people who talk about Star Wars on the internet so fucking much.
Anyways, time to talk about Star Wars on the internet. I finally got done with this: the sequel to my last post about Legends wank. If you're wondering about what "Legends" is or why I hate Legends wank so much, just read that last post, it covers it all in the intro.
Last post I focused on Palpatine, but this post doesn't really have any theme, still focusing on Dark Side stuff though. Speaking of my last post, I've actually updated it with new material, so go read it again if you want. I reference it a bit in here so you might want to do that to get context.
Before getting into things, I want to address some criticisms of the last post.
And that was the only criticism. Yeah, I guess that's a sign I did pretty well last time, because the Legends wank crowd just fixated on the one point I made that relied on WoG to ignore the entire thread instead of actually trying to come up with any actual rebuttals. Honestly I think it's a bit funny, cause I'm willing to bet my mother's life that if tomorrow George Lucas came out and said "mmm, every Legends Jedi is an MFTL multiverse buster," the same type of people who complain about using that piece of WoG would be tripping over each other to update the VSBW profiles first.
But okay, let's talk about WoG. If you don't know what WoG is, it stands for Word of God, and people use it to refer to something an author says about their story outside of the context of that story. Think of J.K. Rowling saying wizards shit on the floor and use magic to clean it up on Twitter. It wasn't in a book, but the author said it. That's what WoG is.
Personally, I think WoG should be judged on a case by case basis. This is how most battleboarders look at WoG, and I disagree with this mindset, I accept it more based on who's saying it and how much sense it makes with the presented material. I stand by using Tom Veitch's statements about Force Storms in my last post and still find them completely 100% legitimate, since he's the sole author of the Dark Empire story and his statements make the story make more sense instead of less. He also said it was the intended explanation when the comic was being released. I do, however, understand some people's trepidation when it comes to accepting WoG, which is why I've included other points about Force Storms in the post to outline why, even if you toss out WoG, they're still not applicable in most combat scenarios and don't scale to his other Force abilities.
I learned my lesson though, and I won't be using any WoG in my Legends wank posts again. Not because I think using WoG is wrong to do, no, I just don't want the whole post to be ignored because of one point. So yeah, that's my piece on WoG, not gonna say any more about that. Onto the actual thread.

The Claim: Darth Nihilus is a surface wiper

When someone comments "Legends is crazy bro," they usually like to tack on a few examples of "crazy" Legends characters. Abeloth, Grandmaster Luke, the one Sith that was immortal, etcetera. Because of the Obi-Wan Death Battle, he's become a recent favorite for this - I can't tell you how many times I've seen someone say "Obi-Wan can open a black hole with his mind!" because of that garbage fucking video. But a perennial favorite of the "Legends is crazy bro" posters is Darth Nihilus, an intimidating black-cloaked villain from the Knights of the Old Republic series.
From the way people talk about this guy, you'd think he's the Legends version of Galactus, a guy who flies around the galaxy eating planets and shitting out supernovas. Of course, as with all Legends characters, he is drastically, drastically oversold.
Saying Nihilus "eats planets" is misleading. He doesn't suck up the entire mass of a planet into his mouth, he uses a special Force Drain technique to consume the Force energy of the population of a planet, which causes collateral damage for unspecified reasons. Though it's said/implied he's done this numerous times, we only see Nihilus actually do this once to a planet called Katarr, in a flashback scene in a comic. It's shown to cause widespread ruination and reduce people to skeletons.
This is a good feat, sure, but the calc people toss around for it has more inflation than DeviantArt. A Narutoforums calc claims that he's outputting 727.586 petatons here. Or, as Death Battle would put it, 54 TRILLION HIROSHIMAS.
Just look at the assumptions being made. It assumes that Katarr was obliterated to the point where it was a flat ball of dust and all the oceans were evaporated, based on the end of the comic where you can see it through the windows of Nihilus's ship and it's shown as a featureless ball. But this can be explained as the ship having moved further away from the planet to the point where you can't see any detail on it in the time between him wiping the planet and going down to pick up his disciple from the place. It's said to be days later in a text box, so for all we know he could've travelled to a completely different planet in that time. The comic obviously doesn't accurately draw Katarr to scale anyways, so it being depicted as a flat ball in the last pages is probably just artistic license anyways, if it's the same place.
If that wasn't enough, we actually see what the surface of the planet looks like after the wipe, and check it out - there's still some shattered buildings around, ruined trees, and what looks like a still-standing tower in the background. I don't think those would be there if all the mountains were reduced to atoms and all the oceans were evaporated as the calc claims. So the 727 petatons number can be safely chucked in the dumpster.
Look, I'm obviously not gonna say Nihilus can't surface wipe with his Force Drain. It's pretty explicit from the comic. But what I am gonna say is that nobody scales to it, his other powers don't scale to it, and it's also just kinda irrelevant.
Before I cover those though, I just have one last thing to talk about: there's actually a debate on whether or not Nihilus's Force Drain is the thing that causes the damage when he "eats" a planet.
It mostly comes from this one encyclopedia entry for him which says that he drew "more and more power from worlds that he blasted into ruin" while traveling on his special ship, the Ravager. So the "blasting" comes before the "drawing," or draining. Basically people use this to say that what Nihilus actually does is destroy the surface of planets with the Ravager's weaponry and then sucks the Force out from the people on it after.
It's interesting, and the comic can actually line up with this idea if you read it a certain way. Honestly, a draining ability causing random explosions is pretty weird if you ask me, and the bystanders we see during this explosion seen don't really look like they're getting their Force drained. The depiction of his draining power is also off, in the game we see it's an orange energy bolt. No random explosions, no creeping black shadow. So it's possible the destruction we see in the comic is thanks to the Ravager firing on the colony, and the Force Drain happened after off-panel.
So yeah, I see why people think this could line up. But there are, of course, things that contradict this. Visas, Nihilus's disciple and survivor of the attack says that the destruction of Katarr wasn't done with a ship and the KOTOR Campaign Guide conflicts with this too, since it said he wiped out the life on the planet "using the Force."
So yeah, it's probably not the ship blasting thing. Just wanted to clarify that, cause I knew people would ask. From here on out I'm going with the regular interpretation.

Nobody scales to it

Nihilus is routinely pointed out as being an absolute oddity among the Sith and Force users in general. He's not even a regular being: he's a "Dark Side aberration", he's been called a living wound in the Force. His souped-up Force Drain is pretty well defined as a unique ability to him thanks to his specific origin and biology, and tons of Sith Lords have unique powers of their own. So scaling other Force users to his feat isn't really something you should do. I don't even think Palpatine could replicate this: sure, he could replicate any other of Nihilus's feats based on statements, but I don't know why he could use his super special wound in the Force "Lord of Hunger" Force Drain power.
Saying that anyone who isn't a living wound in the Force powered by pure overwhelming hunger could replicate his special Dark Side hunger-fueled Force Drain just lacks any sort of sound basis and doesn't work either objectively or narratively.

His other powers don't scale to it

Sure, Nihilus can suck out people's Force energy on a planetary scale, but it's not like he can put that power behind a Force push or something. I think this is pretty obvious but I feel the need to point this out because of the "VSBW model of damage output scaling."
This is a term I just made up for that thing VSBW does, you know, that thing. A witch could have two spells - shooting fireballs and making a big storm in the sky. VSBW will take how many biggatons it takes to make the storm, then claim her fireballs hit with the same force, when the best feat for the witch's fireballs is one lightly singing cardboard. It makes no sense to me because the fireball and the storm are obviously two separate things, so conflating them makes little sense.
But of course, people will say "well, all his abilities are powered by the Force, so they should all be equivalent." Short answer, fuck off. Long answer, no, there's tons of Force users in Legends and canon that have like a specific "gimmick." Yarael Poof's gimmick in Legends is that he's good at illusions, as an example. Others are specifically talented at using the Force to make cold mist, or specifically talented at telepathy, or psychometry, or mind reading, or whatever.
It's very, very well established that people can be better with certain Force powers than others. And once again, Nihilus's whole gimmick is that he's got a super special Force Drain he can use to suck the Force energy out of people. He's literally called THE LORD OF HUNGER. So saying "yeah his super special Force Drain damages a planet's surface, so he can do that with a Force push" is fucking dumb.

Kinda irrelevant

So his other powers don't scale to his Force Drain, hope you get that by now. So, outside of being useful for sucking out another character's Force energy in battle - which is a powerful move, believe me - his Force Drain's range is pretty much irrelevant. Sure, it can work on a pretty massive scale, but that doesn't really matter if he's just fighting one person. I'm not saying Force Drain isn't a good power against other Star Wars characters, just that the scale of it doesn't matter when people generally just put characters in one-on-ones on WhoWouldWin-type sites.
It also doesn't matter if he's not fighting someone from the Star Wars universe, since logically they wouldn't have any Force in them for him to suck out. Yes, his Force Drain affects more than just Force users, but everyone in Star Wars has Force in them, even planets have Force in them - this is pretty consistent, they say this kinda stuff in the movies. So Nihilus's Force Drain is only really relevant when you match him up against another Star Wars character.
But people like to equate stuff like life energy or ki or Force or chakra or Reishi or souls or whatever in battleboarding just to make things fair, so I guess that point is up to personal interpretation / the rules someone lays out in a thread.

Verdict: Only with a Force power that no one else scales to, that's unique to him, that his other powers don't scale to, and that's mostly irrelevant in a standard WhoWouldWin scenario.

The Claim: Vitiate is a surface wiper

There have been plenty of online Star Wars games over the years, but Star Wars: The Old Republic is easily the most popular. The main threat, as I understand, is this evil Sith guy with like 20 different names: Tenebrae, Valkorion, the Sith Emperor, whatever. Most people just call him Vitiate, as will I in this post.
I don't really care for MMOs, so I never really got into SWTOR despite being a Star Wars fan. My only exposure to it has been through research for these Legends posts, and I have to say, it looks just as boring as any other MMO. I also just kinda hate every aspect of its design, but that's neither here nor there. This is a battleboarding post, and the big thing every "Legends is crazy bro" poster talks about from SWTOR is Vitiate's planet-wiping ritual.
Yep, it's a ritual. Yeah, that word alone makes things pretty open-and-shut. Force rituals don't really scale to other abilities or Force users for obvious reasons. This particular ritual really doesn't scale, cause it requires - wait for it - the death of eight thousand Sith Lords to pull off. Sure, it wiped out all life on the planet it was performed on, a place called Nathema, which yeah, that's impressive. It worked by sucking all the Force out of the planet, which made Vitiate immortal and much, much stronger in the Force than he already was. It's a good ritual, not challenging that. But eight thousand Sith Lords is definitely not something Vitiate has on hand at all times.
There's some other stuff I could mention about this Nathema ritual, like how it also took ten fucking days and required some kind of computer named Zildrog which killed all the Sith Lords or something, but I really don't have to. You see, nobody gives two shits about the Nathema ritual. That's right, I just wasted your fucking time talking about it.
Here's the answer you'll get if you say "Vitiate's stuff is rituals" to your average Star Wars battleboarder.
While yes, the ritual on Nathema required the sacrifice of thousands, his later feat on the planet Ziost was done completely with his own power and was NOT a ritual. So, in summary, Darth Vader could TOTALLY blow up a planet bro!
So, let's talk about the Ziost wipe. The Ziost wipe, despite what people may claim, is still pretty obviously a ritual. Let's first explain the situation, I'm gonna be doing this in bullet points.
Yeah, the argument people use here is that Vitiate can did the wipe alone without any ritual sacrifice because he was weakened beforehand, then got back to his standard level of power by slaughtering people on Ziost, then right as he was at that level did the wipe. Honestly, I don't know where people get the idea he did it right when he was at full strength. At the end of the missions on Ziost which you spend fighting those he's mind controlled, you actually go back to the space station place that serves as a mission lobby. During the time the player is there, it's clear Vitiate still has people under mind control and is still killing to increase his power. I can't find any indication of canonically how long the gap is between you leaving the planet and you getting the signal that the planetary wipe is happening, or if Vitiate did it right after getting back to full power. I might just be missing something, so let's just go with the assumption that he did the wipe right as he got back to full strength.
Remember when I said Force users have gimmicks in Legends? Well, Vitiate's is rituals, pretty much. That and being a body-hopping spirit. He uses rituals for a ton of shit, rituals are kinda his thing. Here's the evidence Ziost was just another use of the ritual, even if he did it of his own power. More bullet points.
Some people try to say that this Codex entry disproves the idea that Ziost was a ritual. This is because it uses the word "but" while talking about rituals, separating the Ziost wipe from rituals as being its own different thing. This is not the greatest of arguments cause we see how the Ziost wipe works and I think it's pretty clearly supposed to be the same ritual Vitiate's famous for. The "but" here is more likely separating the "whispered rumors" nature of the previous planet-wiping events to the "clear display" of the Ziost ritual. The fact that they talk about an address to the Galactic Republic right after points to that. Honestly, it's how I read it the first time I saw it, this other interpretation didn't even cross my mind.
So yeah, it's a ritual. He can maybe activate it of his own power after the Nathema amp, but still, it's a ritual - very clearly its own thing with its own purpose and means of being performed. There might be some differences in the execution of Nathema and Ziost, but the practically identical outcomes show that the same principle is at play. And again, the ritual is more akin to a planetary Force Drain like what Nihilus does than some sort of planet-killing death wave. So let me address the same points as I did for Nihilus here.

Nobody scales to it

Saying that people can scale to a ritual is weird to me, but I guess you could say that if another Sith got their hands on the information of how to perform the ritual, they could do it, which would be a form of scaling. Sure, that works out to me I guess, but they probably wouldn't be able to do it of their own power like Ziost. Vitiate was only able to after doing it the first time, which permanently amped his power to a massive degree. They'd have to do the eight thousand Sith sacrifice first.

His other powers don't scale to it

Yeah this is just kinda obvious, Vitiate doesn't rip the crust off of planets with telekinesis or whatever, the ritual is what he does.
Honestly I don't get why people think you can scale Force powers to other Force powers at all. Like, what if a Force user only showed the ability to mind control people. Would you calc how many joules of energy it takes to mind control someone to determine how much they could hypothetically lift with their telekinesis? What if they only ever used Force lightning? How would you get the power of their mind control from that, would you take the wattage or something? Do you see why I think this is weird?

Kinda irrelevant

Since this is basically a weird version of Force Drain - works by sucking the Force out of the victims and the planet - just refer to the Nihilus section I guess. The funniest thing here is that, since planets in other verses wouldn't have Force in them to be drained out, you can argue that if you dropped Vitiate on real life Earth he wouldn't be able to surface wipe it. Kill everyone on the planet over time, sure, but not suck its Force out.

Verdict: Only with a Force power that his other powers don't scale to and that's mostly irrelevant in a standard WhoWouldWin scenario.

The Claim: Darth Bane is a surface wiper (feat. the thought bomb)

I'm gonna try and make this one brief. It's less complicated than those two doozies we just had to cover, so yeah. Remember the thing I joked about in the last post, "Darth Bane's world-crushing strategy?" Well, it turns out it's actually referring to a ritual that Darth Bane came up with.
Once again: ritual. Already it doesn't scale to anything, be that other Force users or Darth Bane's other abilities. It's a pretty uncomplicated ritual too, basically a bunch of Sith just sit together criss cross applesauce and channel their energy to make a storm that burns down a forest.
Apparently some people think this is surface wiping for whatever reason, which I don't understand. This ritual was intended to burn down a forest to force some Jedi out of hiding and is noted as being similar to and weaker than the thought bomb ritual, another ritual that involves a bunch of Sith joining together to do a thing.
Not going to say too much about the thought bomb as it's pretty complex, but it fucked up the ecosystem of the planet it was performed on, sucks up the spirits of Force users, and is a suicide attack. Otherwise, it's similar to the other ritual here with the Sith needing to join together to do it. Read the Wookieepedia page if you want to learn more. So Bane's ritual is explicitly weaker than that, despite his boast while performing it that he's going to "kill a world."
Also once again, we have an inflated Narutoforums calc. Sheesh, lots of Star Wars discussion on a forum for an entire different series.
The issue here is that the calc assumes the ritual covers half the planet when it stopped at the edge of a forest. It's also a bit wonky cause they made a lightning storm that burnt down the forest, it wasn't just some kind of direct energy blast or whatever. Trying to get a number out of the ritual is just kinda pointless anyways. It was cut short, so we didn't see its full power, and it's explicitly noted as being weaker than the surface-level thought bomb ritual. Plus, as we know from other Legends material, Force users combining their powers is multiplicative and not additive, so you can't even divide it by the people present or whatever.

Verdict: Only with a ritual that involves a bunch of Sith joining power.

Well, since I just covered a number of "surface wiping feats," let's go back to my first post and gather together all the surface wiping Force user stuff, shall we?
  • Palpatine's Force Storms - Even ignoring the WoG which says Palpatine can't make Force Storms of his own volition, they don't scale to his other abilities and are completely irrelevant in most combat scenarios. If he tried using one in a normal fight, he'd almost 100% kill himself with it just due to its sheer size and erratic nature. So it's only really good as some kind of weird suicide attack.
  • Random unnamed Sith Sorceress's ritual - Requires an obelisk to be built and several centuries of prep time, so it obviously doesn't scale to her other abilities and is completely irrelevant in any combat scenario I can think of. Also, this killed her.
  • Nihilus's Force Drain - Pointed out as being unique to him, clearly doesn't scale to his other abilities, and the "planet wiping range" of this power is completely irrelevant in most combat scenarios.
  • Vitiate's first ritual - Requires eight thousand Sith Lords worth of sacrifies.
  • Vitiate's Ziost feat - Still a ritual, even if he can activate it on his own now. Doesn't scale to his other abilities and the "planet wiping" trait of this ritual is completely irrelevant in most combat scenarios.
  • Darth Bane's ritual - Requires planning and multiple Force users joining together (which we know is multiplicative and not additive, so no one involved can scale), so it's completely irrelevant in most combat scenarios.
  • Thought bomb ritual - Same as above, except it's also a suicide attack.
Well, looking at it, it seems pretty consistent to me that you either need a lot of outside assistance or some sort of super special gimmick power which is completely irrelevant to combat to surface wipe in the Star Wars galaxy. To be clear here, when I say "combat" I'm talking about a 1v1 scenario you'd usually see on a battleboarding site.
So, yeah. Saying something like "Force users can surface wipe with some abilites" is technically true, but very dishonest and misleading, cause there's like... literally 3 Force users, Palps, Vitiate and Nihilus (talking about "mortals" here, not space gods or whatever) that you can argue can reliably surface wipe without any external help. Even then, they're not using raw Force power or telekinesis to do it, they're using super special gimmick powers that aren't really that relevant in a fight.
Oh, and let's talk about who those 3 are. Nihilus is literally a Dark Side aberration whose entire gimmick is that he can drain planets, and Vitiate and Palpatine have both been called the strongest Dark Side user ever. Trying to say whatever random Force user has surface wiping power cause Vitiate or Palpatine or Nihilus exist is just fucking stupid, especially cause they have to use special gimmicks to do so.
I feel like people get the wrong idea about what I'm trying to prove with debunking Legends shit. I'm not trying to say Legends is anemically weak or anything, I'm not trying to say it's the weakest setting in existence, I'm not trying to say Legends Jedi couldn't tear apart a soggy piece of paper. Legends Force users are still strong, they're just not strong like Dragon Ball Z characters are - their strength doesn't come from planet busting laser beams or whatever, it comes from stuff like powers that bypass conventional durability, mental manipulation, and other forms of "hax." I know every battleboarder wants their favorite series to be just like DBZ, but that just isn't how Star Wars is.

The Claim: CANON PALPATINE IS MFTL+++!!!!1!!

That is not a joke, people fucking believe this. I bet you weren't expecting to see canon wank make an appearance in this post, but I saw this and I just had to comment on it. It's even from The Rise of Skywalker, the movie where Palpatine is constrained to a giant mechanical baby chair for the majority of the run time.
Here's the calc and here's the quote used from the canon expanded novelization. He's apparently 2000 times faster than light because he sent his spirit to Exegol to inhabit his new clone body before the events of TROS. Cause y'know, he was a clone in that movie, they never actually explained that in the movie itself I don't think.
Yeah, this is sounding awfully familiar, isn't it? Gotta say, 2000 times FTL seems small when compared to the outlandish number for the equivalent feat from the other post. This is because the calc-er decided to go with a timeframe of 24 years, based on the first appearance of Snoke. This is actually pretty clever thinking, props to the guy who did this. But, if they had just read 1 sentence further, they would've known that Palpatine was in his clone body before his old one even hit the bottom of that giant shaft. It's written a little oddly, but it's pretty clear that's the implication - there's no mention of any time spent wandering space or whatever, just a straight jump from his old body dying to jolting awake in his new one.
So, does this make the feat even better since the timespan's shorter? Well, I think you can guess the answer - this is pretty clearly just him warping his spirit over to his clone body. I'm not going to repeat the same arguments I made for the other spirit warp feat, I'm just going to repeat that I don't understand why people use this kind of shit at all.
Like, if you go with the "hurtling through space for 24 years at 2000c" interpretation what do these people think was going on during all that time? Seriously, I have so many questions if we go with this version. Here's just a few:
Was Palpatine screaming and laughing evilly as his spirit shot through space at MFTL speeds? Was it instantaneous for him or did he feel every hour? Was he at risk of getting sucked into a black hole? Or hit with a supernova? Was he doing ghostly loop de loops around solar systems for kicks? Is it like the Google Chrome dinosaur game where you have to dodge cactuses and birds, but with celestial bodies? Did every asteroid he dodge give him 10 bonus points on his score? Would he get hurt if he slammed into an asteroid? Did he have to eat or sleep? Did he stop by Dex's Diner to pick up a wampa burger on the way to his clone body? Did he have to take bathroom breaks to spirit pee? Did he fly by Leia and Han's house to scare baby Kylo Ren in the cradle? Was that what made him evil? Was he really bored after year 10, or did he enjoy it the whole way through? Was he playing Mario Kart Tour on his Force spirit iPhone to pass the time? Or was he playing a more "old man" game, like solitaire or sudoku? Did he know where he was going? Did he need a map? Or did he have one memorized? Could he have run in with other Force spirits just floating around? Did he have an awkward conversation with ghost Obi-Wan or ghost Yoda? Did he have to then fight them on the spirit plane to keep them from warning Luke? Was it like an awesome extra-dimensional battle where they shot ghost lasers at each other? Oh, what if he took the wrong Force spirit exit and ended up on Naboo? Could he have possessed someone else, like something other than his clone body? Was there a wacky mixup where he accidentally ended up in the body of a Gungan cause his old man eyes mistook it for his clone body? Did he spend a month or two in that Gungan body because he grew attached to the previous owner's wife and kids and enjoyed being back on his home planet? Did he have to have awkward Gungan sex with the wife to keep up the charade? Did he see the effects of the wars he caused on the Gungans and start to feel bad and regret the whole Sith thing? Did he have to then remind himself what he was doing and throw himself down that big shaft in the Naboo power plant Darth Maul fell down so he could get his soul out again? Or did he just commit suicide by booma sling to the temple? Was he emotionally scarred after that? When he did get back to his clone body, did he send money to the Gungan family to make sure that they were being taken care of? Did he secretly deliver a present to the little Gungan children's doorstep on Life Day? Did they open the door just as he was able to flee down the corner? Did the children, still grieving their father's death, catch sight of the back of his robe and ask their mom who that old man was? Did she look wistfully after him, shaking her head and saying she didn't know, but that she felt there was something familiar about him?
Honestly, this should be a fucking Disney+ series, this sounds entertaining as hell. You could call it "Dude, Where's My Clone?" and appeal to the stoner demographic. Or, perhaps, go in a more dramatic direction: "Star Wars: Soul Searching." Any way you slice it, a galactic roadtrip with a senile Sith spirit sounds like it could be really fun. Get on it, Dave Filoni.
Anyways, I don't really get why people think Force spirits have to travel anywhere at all. Remember how Obi-Wan died on the Death Star, then his spirit showed up on Hoth in Empire? Was he like, already there? Did he know through the Force Luke would need him there in a few years and start jogging over at a brisk 20,000c at the end of the first movie? How about his trip from Hoth to Dagobah? Or over to the forest moon of Endor?
When Force spirits show up - you know, how they fade into a scene - is that them popping out of lightspeed? Yeah, I really don't think so, they can just teleport I'm pretty sure. Well, "teleport" is probably not the right word, but you know what I mean.
Oh, here's another question: what about projections? Like how Luke sent a Force projection over to Crait in Last Jedi. Was his projection moving MFTL to get there in time or something? Does that mean canon Luke has MFTL reactions too? I think Yoda did the same thing in Rebels or something. Does that mean...
Wait. I should stop giving these people ideas.

Verdict: lol no.

The Claim: "The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force."

Jesus Christ, what am I doing? Why do I have to make an argument against this? Why do people use this?
I bet you think this is some kind of joke, but no, I see people use this statement all the fucking time. Fucking Death Battle used it in a Q&A, oh God, shoot me please let this nightmare end, I pray for death every day and it never comes. Either people use the original version Vader said in the original Star Wars or the version from the Dark Empire endnotes which upgrades it to being an entire system instead of just a planet.
First off, I'd like to point out that the Dark Empire endnotes version of the statement isn't specifically being said about Palpatine. The wording is "he said this during the time when he served the Emperor," not "he specifically said this about the Emperor." This is like basic reading comprehension, I learned this shit in kindergarten, but people misread this shit all the time and say "yeah Vader was talking about the Emperor." No he wasn't, learn to read.
Second, I seriously don't think that the VSBW crowd that brings this line up have even watched Star Wars or understand it at all. I'm willing to bet most have only seen the Dark Empire version posted around and don't know that the line is from the movie.
I'm certain about this because there are much better lines to wank. Obi-Wan says that the Force "binds the galaxy together" in the original movie. Does VSBW not know about this? Of course they don't, the only Obi-Wan quotes they know are fucking unfunny prequel jokes. If they did know about it every single character would be a galaxy buster because "they can control the Force which is a galaxy-binding energy." It's not too far from how they jerk off Yarael Poof.
Here's the thing: the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force. We see this in the movie. Luke Skywalker was only able to destroy the Death Star after he accepted the Force and let it guide him during the trench run. If it weren't for the Force, he wouldn't have made the shot. The Force allows him to overcome the planet-destroying Death Star. At the risk of sounding pretentious, that's kinda the fucking point.
The Force is higher than material things, it's not just something Jedi use to lift things into the air, it's literally their religion. It's a religion for the Sith, too, that's why Darth Vader's saying that in that scene. It's the same thing as a Christian person saying "God is mightier than all."
Taking this claim at surface level is the exact same thing as taking Admiral Motti's claim about the Death Star being the "ultimate power in the universe" at surface level. Sorry VSBW, gonna have to slide Palpatine down from a multi solar system buster to a sub-planet buster, he can't be higher than the Death Star. Move Abeloth and Grandmaster Luke and the Mortis trio and everyone else down too. Motti just said that the Death Star, which can only bust planets, is the "ultimate" power in the universe, so nobody can be higher. I'm sorry, I don't make the rules.
You know, it probably seems like I've been going hard on Legends wank, but honestly it's quite the opposite. I've been generous. I've given this shit the benefit of the doubt at every opportunity, and not once in this post or the post before have I used the "this is just a statement" argument. Even though a lot of this shit is just fucking statements.
Jerec with the Valley of the Jedi being able to blow up solar systems? Just a statement, we never see this.
The Sith Meditation Sphere being able to blow up stars? Just a statement, we never see this, the only guide that says this recaps the story incorrectly. It was the Sith Corsair ship that blew up the star in the comic, not the Sphere.
Wutzek being able to blow up solar systems? Just a statement, we never see him do anything like this.
And this? This is the definition of "just a statement." If you use this scene to say Jedi can blow up planets, you are a fucking moron, full stop.

Verdict: Please, please, please fuck off with this shit.

submitted by 76SUP to CharacterRant [link] [comments]

Weekly Round-Up: October 5th - October 11th

Weekly Round-Up: October 5th - October 11th
/bangtan Weekly Round-Up
Previous thread: September 28th - October 4th
This round-up is for everything that happened in the /bangtan realm within the past week, compiled for your convenience! If you have feedback, please leave a comment or send me a PM.
The latest weekly round-up is linked on the sidebar of the subreddit. The link to the archive of past round-up posts can always be found in the wiki index.

Megathreads

Date Thread
201010 MAP OF THE SOUL ON:E Day 1 (7PM KST / 10 AM UTC)
201011 MAP OF THE SOUL ON:E Day 2 (4PM KST / 7AM UTC)

Special

Date Thread
201009 MAX - Colour Vision/ Blueberry Eyes AMA =)

News & Information

Date Thread
201005 BTS have taken their 16th win for Dynamite on Music Bank (episode did not air last week because of Chuseok)
201005 Run BTS! Ep. 112 Grading in progress
201005 Delayed Single-View Streaming For Map Of The Soul ON:E Online Concert Will Be Available
201005 ARMY BOMB Ver.3 and ‘Map of the Soul Special Edition’ can now connect to “Boy With Luv (feat. Halsey)” (Army With Luv version) on Weverse
201006 "Dynamite" is on #2 on the Billboard Hot 100 for its 6th week
201006 BTS has been nominated for Best Song ("Dynamite"), Best Pop, Best Group, Biggest Fans and Best Virtual Live ("Map of the Soul ON:E") at the 2020 MTV EMAs
201009 BTS have taken their 17th win for "Dynamite" on today's KBS Music Bank
201009 Everland Themepark has put up a commemorative plaque at BTS' AGT performance site
201010 BTS have taken their 18th win for "Dynamite" on today's Music Core

Merchandise news

Date Thread
201005 Map of the Soul ON:E Merchandise Promotional Video
201005 “Map of the Soul ON:E” concert merchandise is now available to preorder on Weverse Shop
201007 BTS (방탄소년단) BTS POP-UP : MAP OF THE SOUL Official Trailer
201008 BTS POP-UP : MAP OF THE SOUL Online Store & Showcase Schedule
201008 "Map of the Soul ON:E" special merchandise for livestream purchasers-only will be available to preorder on Weverse Shop Global from October 12, 11AM KST
201009 BigHit Official Merch: Doors will open again 2020.10.23 11AM (KST)
201010 US Army: Target is going to have a "buy 2, get 1" sale on music and books starting this Sunday (11 Oct), so you can consider getting BE and/or SLA: SA from here!

Official Media

Type Date Link Thread
Bomb 201005 [BANGTAN BOMB] On the Phone with Bang PD Thread
Bomb 201008 [BANGTAN BOMB] BTS Donut Time Thread
Bomb 201009 [BANGTAN BOMB] 'Dynamite' Stage CAM (BTS focus) @ Radio.com LIVE Thread
In the SOOP 201006 [Behind] In the SOOP BTS ver. EP.7 BTS Cooking Challenge: Behind-the-scenes Thread
In the SOOP 201008 In the SOOP BTS ver. EP.8 Back to Our Everyday Life Thread
Live 201005 2009** RM & Jung Kook Thread
Photos 201009 [BTS Official Naver] Gather for Dy-dy-dy-dyna-mite's promotion behind! Thread
Teaser 201006 BTS (방탄소년단) MAP OF THE SOUL ON:E Teaser 1 Thread
Teaser 201007 BTS (방탄소년단) MAP OF THE SOUL ON:E Teaser 2 Thread
Other 201009 Big Hit Edu: BTS ARMY Hangeul Mikrokosmos Challenge Thread

Appearances

Date Link Thread
201005 Pitchfork: BTS Break Down Albums from Dark and Wild to Map of the Soul 7 (20 minute video) Thread
201006 RADIO.COM LIVE with BTS Thread

New Releases

Date Link Thread
201004 MAX - Blueberry Eyes (Feat. SUGA OF BTS) [Official Video Alternate Ending] Thread
201010 MAX - Blueberry Eyes (Feat. SUGA of BTS) [Jazz Version] Thread

Official SNS

Date SNS Link Thread
201005 Weverse Jungkook Thread
201005 Twitter Jungkook Thread
201007 Twitter Jimin Thread
201006 Twitter Today’s Bangtan @ RADIO.COM Live Thread
201007 Twitter Taehyung Thread
201007 Twitter Taehyung 2 Thread
201007 Twitter j-hope Thread
201007 TikTok Bangtan Thread
201007 Twitter BTS Official: Music will unite us all in just ONE WEEK at the @BBMAs ! Join us Wednesday, October 14th at 8/7c on NBC. #BBMAs Thread
201008 Twitter RM and J-Hope Thread
201008 Facebook [D-2] MAP OF THE SOUL ON:E Check the Online Concert CHECK LIST Thread
201008 Twitter Jungkook Thread
201008 Weverse Jungkook Thread
201008 Twitter SUGA Thread
201009 Twitter Namjoon Thread
201009 Twitter Seokjin Thread
201010 Weverse j-hope Thread
201010 Weverse Compilation
201010 Twitter Taehyung Thread
201010 Twitter Jimin and j-hope Thread
201010 Twitter SUGA Thread
201010 Twitter Today's Bangtan @ Map of the Soul ON:E Day 1 Thread
201010 Twitter Seokjin Thread
201011 Twitter Today’s Bangtan @ Map of the Soul ON:E, Day 2 Thread
201011 Twitter SUGA Thread
201011 Weverse SUGA Thread
201011 Twitter Seokjin Thread
201011 Twitter Jimin Thread
201011 Twitter j-hope Thread

CF & Partnerships

Date Thread
201005 Bodyfriend BTS TVCF #9 Healthcare in Daily Life
201005 Bodyfriend BTS TVCF #10 Introduce PHANTOM Medical
201005 Samsung Mobile: All the ingredients for perfection. 🖋 #GalaxyNote20 #GalaxyxBTS #V @BTS_twt 🍰
201006 [FILA] PROJECT 7 - Behind The Scene 1
201006 Samsung Galaxy x BTS: A Piece of Cake 🍰
201006 Samsung Mobile: 👔, 🍰 Now that you’ve seen the rest, here’s the last one in the mix. Coming soon. 🧪
201006 BODYFRIEND X BTS 2nd Behind The Scenes – Teaser (Jin, j-hope, and JungKook)
201006 BODYFRIEND X BTS 1st Behind The Scenes – Full Version
201007 [ENG] 💌 What is the RM's way to Duty-Free For the relaxed and travel time?
201007 Samsung Mobile: Timeless design, endless flair. #GalaxyNote20. #GalaxyxBTS #RM @BTS_twt 🧪
201008 Samsung: Global Samsung TV Retail Stores Play Newest BTS Music Video ‘Dynamite’
201008 [FILA] PROJECT 7 - Behind The Scene 2
201008 [ENG] 💌 What is the SUGAR's way to Duty-Free For the relaxed time?
201008 Samsung Mobile: Double the screens, double the possibilities.💡#GalaxyNote20. #GalaxyxBTS #Jimin @BTS_twt 🧪
201009 Samsung Galaxy x BTS: La Parfumerie 🧪

Articles

Date Publisher Article Thread
201005 Yonhap News BTS Agency Begins 2-Day IPO Subcriptions From Individuals Thread
201005 DR Nyheder Danish media interview with Dynamite choreographer Nicky Andersen Thread
201005 Vox With "Dynamite," BTS beat the US music industry at its own cheap game Thread
201006 Forbes ‘Savage Love’ Musician Jawsh 685 Talks Viral Fame And Working With BTS: ‘They’ve Got Their Own Poppy Style’ Thread
201008 K-media The MAP OF THE SOUL ON:E online concerts this weekend have a production cost 8 times of Bang Bang Con Thread
201008 Billboard BTS' 'Tonight Show' Takeover Leads to the 'Most Social Week' in Late-Night TV History: Exclusive Thread
201008 Forbes BTS’s ‘BE’ Debut Is Going To Be Huge—But Just How Huge? Thread

SNS Mentions

NOTE: Entries with 💜 have new content directly involving BTS
Date 💜 Link Thread
201005 💜 RADIO.COM: #BTSArmy 💜 Are you ready for our #RadiocomLIVE with @BTS_twt this week? Thread
201005 Seoul Government Thread
201003 💜 ARFilm Dir Ojun Kwon (production co.): Behind the scenes photo of "Home" performance filming Thread
201006 The Tonight Show with Jimmy Fallon gained 1 M Youtube Subscribers during BTS Week Thread
201006 The Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon had more social media interactions during BTS Week than any other, with total interactions up 1384% and 119M views Thread
201006 💜 James Jean: Thank you RM 🙏 Thread
201010 💜 VIXX Ken with Jin Thread
201010 John Cena Thread

Other media

NOTE: Entries with 💜 have new content directly involving BTS
Type 💜 Date Link Thread
Cover 201005 Ricardo Walker's dance crew covered Dynamite! Thread
Cover 201009 BTS 'Dynamite' Cover (Rain w/ Shownu, KCM) Thread
Cover 201009 Dynamite (Guitar Cover) - Yewon Thread
Cover 201010 BTS (방탄소년단) Dynamite (Cover) by Rise Up Children’s Choir Thread
Cover 201010 B FREE remixes 'DYNAMITE' Thread
Photos 💜 201007 Naver x Dispatch Photos - BTS Week at Gyeongbokgung Thread
Reaction 201005 Choreographer Reacts: BTS (방탄소년단) 'ON' Kinetic Manifesto Film Shooting Sketch, Sienna Lalau Thread
Video 200930 Actor Sung Dong Il mentions on Radio Star his friendship with V and the affection V has for his daughter Binnie Thread
Video 💜 201009 The Korea Society: BTS Deliver Message of Hope Thread
Other 201006 Jungkook was added on the 16 personalities site under the ISFP personality type Thread

Milestones

Type Date Thread
Charts/Sales 201005 BTS' "Dynamite" is No. 1 on this week's Global 200 Excl. U.S. chart for a third week
Charts/Sales 201005 "Dynamite" is #2 on this week's Billboard Global 200
Charts/Sales 201005 BTS’ 'MAP OF THE SOUL: 7' has now sold over 1 million total units in the US
Charts/Sales 201007 "Map of the Soul: 7 ~THE JOURNEY~" has now been certified RIAJ Triple Platinum! (750k+ units) (1st Foreign male group in history to achieve this in Japan)
Charts/Sales 201006 BTS' "Filter" rises to #1 for the first time on this week's World Digital Song Sales chart. It’s the group’s record-extending 23rd #1 hit.
Charts/Sales 201007 "Dynamite" by BTS reaches #1 on Billboard Japan's Radioplay Chart for the first time since release, becoming the first song by a Korean act to achieve this!
Charts/Sales 201007 RM's "mono." has now reached 120 #1's on iTunes worldwide, tying with Ed Sheeran's "Divide" as the album with most #1's in history
Charts/Sales 201008 'IDOL' received a Platinum certification on Gaon for surpassing 2.5 million downloads.
Likes 201006 BTS becomes the first act in YouTube history to have 11 music videos with over 8M likes
Likes 201007 “Dynamite” has now surpassed 19 MILLION likes on YouTube in just over 1 month and a half, becoming the first MV by a group and the fastest in history
Streams 201005 Spotify Launchs Its First Weekly Charts With BTS 'Dynamite' Is At #5 For Weekly Global Top Songs On Spotify (Sept. 25- Oct. 1)
Views 201005 “Chicken Noodle Soup (feat. Becky G)” has now surpassed 200 million views on YouTube
Views 201005 “DNA” has now surpassed 1.1 billion views on YouTube

TinyTAN

Date Link Thread
201007 TinyTAN: Guess which is who? 📻 📚 👼 📜🖋️ 🎮 🎨 🧸 #TinyTAN #October_14 Thread
201008 TinyTAN KAKAO Emoticon is here Thread

BT21

Date Link Thread
201007 A long time ago, life was harsh on Planet BT... But one magical tune made everyone get through it together. And what if TATA was to sing this song..?! Thread
201009 [TEASER] TATA - Song From Planet BT 2020. 10. 12, 6PM(KST) Thread

BT21 merchandise news

Date Thread
201004 BT21 Green Toy out now! Only today at Line Friends Collection.
201005 BT21 RJ Jumbo Standing Doll Preorder Link [7th Oct 6PM-8th Oct 2AM (PDT)]

Misc

Date Thread
201007 Mini Korean AND Spanish lesson with Chicken Noodle Soup lyrics
201007 Online event - "RM for President": K-Pop Protest Repertories and Populist Soft Power
201007 A mystery solved: The "Respect" Sample
201008 [Fan account] ARMY ON AIR EXPERIENCE
201009 OIAA: Jimin's Bday Flash Fundraiser
201010 [Throwback] Four years ago today, BTS released "Wings" and music video for title song "Blood Sweat & Tears"
201010 Black Swan on The Tonight Show now has Eng subs
201010 [Fan account] ARMY ON AIR CONCERT EXPERIENCE
201011 Translations for MOTS ON:E ending ments

Subreddit

Rolling /bangtan Awards 2020 nomination form

Community posts

Top Discussion Posts

  1. [+177] Favorite BTS inside joke?
  2. [+134] Do you think you found BTS or did BTS find you at just the right time?
  3. [+114] Now that we've seen the performances, how do you think they would have differed if they were done in a normal concert or a tour
  4. [+69] Your favorite Bangtan ad-libs
  5. [+65] Place your bets, Will they change some songs for day-2? Which one are you hoping for?

Weekly threads

Fanart

Here are past week's top 5 fanart posts from our sister subreddit, /heungtan!
Submitter Thread
Bpd_Intp Finally finished my bt21 amigurumi dolls! Im so so proud of them! <3
FawnVaughn Made these a little while ago. I think Mang came out best 💜
tinawyl First time posting on reddit😶 My pencil sketching of V in dynamite😍
Sialisa My aunt made BT21 cookies!
ilumoone Jin ➖ watercolour painting 🌸
submitted by llaverna to bangtan [link] [comments]

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